Beta Indians Discussion

[zoom]

Please discuss anything relating specifically to the Indians (with the exception of Cease Fire), in this thread. The following are the current changes to the civilization:

– Taj Mahal “Cease Fire” ability duration decreased from 20 to 15 seconds; now also halves all military unit speed
– Rajput hand attack increased from 18 to 20; siege attack increased from 20 to 25; speed increased from 5 to 5.5; Mansabdar updated accordingly
– Flail Elephant hand attack increased from 5 to 10; population cost reduced from 4 to 3; Mansabdar updated accordingly

The following changes are currently being considered:

– House cost increased from 70w to 80w; experience-bounties adjusted from 14 to 16 (build) and from 28 to 32 (kill); hitpoints increased from 800 to 1200 [revert]
– Mahout Lancer population cost reduced from 7 to 6; Mansabdar updated accordingly

[Mitoe]

– Rajput hand attack increased from 18 to 20; siege attack increased from 20 to 25; speed increased from 5 to 5.5; Mansabdar updated accordingly

I think 5.5 speed is pushing it a bit. I'm ok with a rajput buff but speed is a very dangerous stat to change in tandem with a 25% attack buff.

– House cost increased from 70w to 80w; experience-bounties adjusted from 14 to 16 (build) and from 28 to 32 (kill); hitpoints increased from 800 to 1200 [revert]

I think if the ceasefire change is successful then this likely doesn't need to be reverted.

[deleted_user]

I don't think rajput buff is needed at all, however I would like to add more speed to flail elephants if we want to make them being useful, because their speed is 4 and they can't snare

[deleted_user0]

– Rajput hand attack increased from 18 to 20; siege attack increased from 20 to 25; speed increased from 5 to 5.5; Mansabdar updated accordingly

I think 5.5 speed is pushing it a bit. I'm ok with a rajput buff but speed is a very dangerous stat to change in tandem with a 25% attack buff.

– House cost increased from 70w to 80w; experience-bounties adjusted from 14 to 16 (build) and from 28 to 32 (kill); hitpoints increased from 800 to 1200 [revert]

I think if the ceasefire change is successful then this likely doesn't need to be reverted.

Cmon, rajput attack increased by 2 doesn't make it op unit, even with upgraded speed
Rajput base stats are so terrible that I think only impact of rajput buff is that troll-strats are now a little bit stronger. Lol.

[lordraphael]

what bothers me, is that india, easily one of the strongest civs in the game is getting buffed only. if ceasefire was removed entirely id be a lot more happy about buffing india.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yep, where are the overall nerfs?

Revert the house cost buff, and make vills slower at building town centers imo (because that's very abusable).
Also make the flail elephant small, x2 attack is unreal.

[Garja]

Rajput base stats are actually great and the cost isn't excessive for India. In fact they will be too good I can tell you. The only reason I'm not against it just yet is because it will be such a fun unit to abuse. I mean just do usual stuff and then 3x rax rajput vs civs like Germans and they don't really have an asnwer. 23 attack, 5.5 speed, gl beating those things with skirms (which cost more).

[Mitoe]

– Rajput hand attack increased from 18 to 20; siege attack increased from 20 to 25; speed increased from 5 to 5.5; Mansabdar updated accordingly

I think 5.5 speed is pushing it a bit. I'm ok with a rajput buff but speed is a very dangerous stat to change in tandem with a 25% attack buff.

– House cost increased from 70w to 80w; experience-bounties adjusted from 14 to 16 (build) and from 28 to 32 (kill); hitpoints increased from 800 to 1200 [revert]

I think if the ceasefire change is successful then this likely doesn't need to be reverted.

Cmon, rajput attack increased by 2 doesn't make it op unit, even with upgraded speed
Rajput base stats are so terrible that I think only impact of rajput buff is that troll-strats are now a little bit stronger. Lol.

It's literally being increased by 5 not 2...

[WickedCossack]

Show hidden quotes

– Rajput hand attack increased from 18 to 20; siege attack increased from 20 to 25; speed increased from 5 to 5.5; Mansabdar updated accordingly

I think 5.5 speed is pushing it a bit. I'm ok with a rajput buff but speed is a very dangerous stat to change in tandem with a 25% attack buff.

– House cost increased from 70w to 80w; experience-bounties adjusted from 14 to 16 (build) and from 28 to 32 (kill); hitpoints increased from 800 to 1200 [revert]

I think if the ceasefire change is successful then this likely doesn't need to be reverted.

Cmon, rajput attack increased by 2 doesn't make it op unit, even with upgraded speed
Rajput base stats are so terrible that I think only impact of rajput buff is that troll-strats are now a little bit stronger. Lol.

It's literally being increased by 5 not 2...

Siege attack you muppet!

Though yes there are an awful lot of buffs.

[princeofkabul]

I like the mahout buff, I can see rajputs becoming problematic with this speed upgrade, Imagine them with TOV ability rofl.
Also Taj mahal could be just changed to export production wonder instead of this retarded ability. Maybe spawn certain amount of export per use or something

[Mitoe]

Ah. Yeah I can't read. I would still rather start at 5.25 if speed really must change. 5.5 seems like a lot.

[Peachrocks]

The problem Rajputs have are the same ones Pikes and most Heavy infantry has. There are other alternatives available especially in India's case where it's overflowing with units that counter cavalry and all three are better choices. The only answer I could give is making the Sepoy less useful against cavalry in age 2/3, thus making the Rajput a better direct answer to cavalry.

You really really don't want melee heavy infantry being too good. I still remember the garbage back in the days where Dutch was best civ in the game with their 5.2 speed Halberdiers that didn't get a penalty against ranged infantry. It was a mess.

[Garja]

Ye, you know meelee infantry can be problematic if you ever made stuff like mass rods for example.
5.5 speed on such a strong unit is indeed problematic. I mean, if you haven't noticed the unit is there to already compensate for the lack of a all-purpose cav unit. In fact if you mix sowar+rajput you get something similar. But now you can probably just spam rajputs instead.

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah rajputs aren't even terrible. It's just you usually have no reason to make them when you have both zambs and sepoys. But now with extra speed they could be scary. Also when you run out of coin you could go mahout rajput

[amiggo1999]

rajputs for sure we're terrible before. I am fine with cease fire being removed, and Taj Mahal having another bonus. Also I'd like to suggest a siege elephant buff in age 4, additional 2 range. Also maybe India should have the ability to research the arsenal upgrade vs ships, as they don't have any land unit that deals enough damage vs fully upp'ed ships.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Lol, India doesn't need buffs against water, it's already one of the best anti-water civs.

[zoom]

– Rajput hand attack increased from 18 to 20; siege attack increased from 20 to 25; speed increased from 5 to 5.5; Mansabdar updated accordingly

I think 5.5 speed is pushing it a bit. I'm ok with a rajput buff but speed is a very dangerous stat to change in tandem with a 25% attack buff.

– House cost increased from 70w to 80w; experience-bounties adjusted from 14 to 16 (build) and from 28 to 32 (kill); hitpoints increased from 800 to 1200 [revert]

I think if the ceasefire change is successful then this likely doesn't need to be reverted.

Except for the fact that it's a 1/9 (not a 1/4) attack buff, I couldn't agree more. That's why I want it tested.

"Fast-moving sword gauntlet infantry. Good against cavalry and buildings."

[zoom]

I don't think rajput buff is needed at all, however I would like to add more speed to flail elephants if we want to make them being useful, because their speed is 4 and they can't snare

Rajputs seem completely unviable.

Buffing Failephants further is something to consider, in the future. For now, I don't want to stack yet more buffs on them, though.

[zoom]

what bothers me, is that india, easily one of the strongest civs in the game is getting buffed only. if ceasefire was removed entirely id be a lot more happy about buffing india.

It's getting buffed in ways I expect to be fairly insignificant to inter-civilization balance. If my expectation is mistaken, it should be tweaked. Please keep in mind the bigger picture, too; several weaker civilizations are going to be buffed, along with the Crossbowman, Grenadier, Halberdier, Plantation and Spy.

Still, I understand your sentiment, and will be evaluating Cease Fire and the two viability buffs (along with everything else). We should also consider whether the House cost buff is insignificant or otherwise undesirable – reverting such changes is typically a good idea.

[zoom]

Rajput base stats are actually great and the cost isn't excessive for India. In fact they will be too good I can tell you. The only reason I'm not against it just yet is because it will be such a fun unit to abuse. I mean just do usual stuff and then 3x rax rajput vs civs like Germans and they don't really have an asnwer. 23 attack, 5.5 speed, gl beating those things with skirms (which cost more).

Exactly—please abuse it so that we may balance it!

[zoom]

Ah. Yeah I can't read. I would still rather start at 5.25 if speed really must change. 5.5 seems like a lot.

I'd rather start at 5.5, and test that. Would you please help, in that regard?

[zoom]

Ye, you know meelee infantry can be problematic if you ever made stuff like mass rods for example.
5.5 speed on such a strong unit is indeed problematic. I mean, if you haven't noticed the unit is there to already compensate for the lack of a all-purpose cav unit. In fact if you mix sowar+rajput you get something similar. But now you can probably just spam rajputs instead.

In which case it will be nerfed – not to worry!

[zoom]

rajputs for sure we're terrible before. I am fine with cease fire being removed, and Taj Mahal having another bonus. Also I'd like to suggest a siege elephant buff in age 4, additional 2 range. Also maybe India should have the ability to research the arsenal upgrade vs ships, as they don't have any land unit that deals enough damage vs fully upp'ed ships.

Adding that to a future "Professional Handlers" buff is worth considering. For now, I don't think we should make any less urgent changes, though. The Siegephant, while flawed, isn't at all unviable, and a buff to it would be a direct buff to the civilization; unlike making the Failephant less useless.

[amiggo1999]

I'm not saying it is an unviable uni, just that it doesn't compare to euro's land ant-water units lategame.

[deleted_user]

India anti water is strong enough imo. They also have all possible upgrades for warships, also you have a agra to take free sea control, siege elephants are hard to kill and so on.