Beta Iroquois Discussion

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Please discuss anything relating specifically to the Iroquois, in this thread. The following are the current changes to the civilization:

– Siege Workshop cost reduced from 300w to 200w (bounties adjusted accordingly)

The following changes are currently being considered:

[Mitoe]

– Siege Workshop cost reduced from 300w to 200w (bounties adjusted accordingly)

What for? Not like Iro needs it changed to 200w since they build it from travois anyway. Seems like an unnecessary change to me.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea, this change seems very unnecessary since you use the travois for that.

Other than that, I'd like to discuss some Iro nerfs. I believe that Iroquois is currently a top3 civs on normal maps. The semi ff is simply too strong. Maybe nerf the WC aura?

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah nerf the units. Having WC aura be 10% is probs the easiest change, though it also nerfs the colonial, which I'm not sure is needed.
-100f could be an option, since on EP iro ages to 14 very often, and even to 13 with a couple treasures. Then again this also nerfs the early colonial, but I'd rather nerf early colo than the whole colo.

Either way, musket riders are just too strong. 421 ranged hp with the WC, while a goon has 300... The musket rider is cheaper but tanks 40% more at range.
Same with forest prowlers obviously, but it seems to be less of a problem since iro is sort of an "infantry civ" and having op skirms seems to make sense.

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– Siege Workshop cost reduced from 300w to 200w (bounties adjusted accordingly)

What for? Not like Iro needs it changed to 200w since they build it from travois anyway. Seems like an unnecessary change to me.

For making the Mantlet and the Ram more viable. The fact that it doesn't affect the Light Cannon before Industrial age (and thus likely not at all, since you'd build it with a Travois, regardless), is great!

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I think Iroquois is in a decent spot, right now, and I'm not planning on focusing on the civilization, for EP7. Limiting scope and making priorities is important. I'm keeping an open mind, though, in case I see something convincing.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Musket riders with 20% RR would make sense anyway, considering the goons got nerfed. Iro is one of the best civs currently so it can't hurt.

[deleted_user]

since the civs that struggle vs iro will most likely be buffed, I don't think iro needs any nerf right now, musketrider nerf would effect iro badly against cannon mass in age3, should consider it aswell I think

[deleted_user0]

– Siege Workshop cost reduced from 300w to 200w (bounties adjusted accordingly)

What for? Not like Iro needs it changed to 200w since they build it from travois anyway. Seems like an unnecessary change to me.

For making the Mantlet and the Ram more viable. The fact that it doesn't affect the Light Cannon before Industrial age (and thus likely not at all, since you'd build it with a Travois, regardless), is great!

It doesnt really make those units more viable though.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I feel like the Iro discussion has been ignored.
Iro is currently a big balance issue and I guess you can't see how strong it is until you play against it. They get as many units as France (even at 12+ min) so their "weak economy" doesn't matter and their units are like 10% stronger than the other units (20% for the musket riders).

If we don't want to see 100% Iro in the next tournaments, we really need to do something. I'd nerf the musket rider range resistance to 20% to be consistent, and the WC aura to 10% (which is already huge). Maybe even nerf the WC special ability.

[Cometk]

i would let them show themselves as broken first before nerfing anything

[Goodspeed]

Something to note is that the community lags behind a fair bit when it comes to noticing whether a civ is too strong, compared to top players. Consensus among them should be enough.

[Kaiserklein]

I think Iroquois is in a decent spot, right now, and I'm not planning on focusing on the civilization, for EP7. Limiting scope and making priorities is important. I'm keeping an open mind, though, in case I see something convincing.

No offense, but "priorities" include stuff like buffing grenadiers or halbs, or making iro foundry 200w? But not balancing iro, easily one of the strongest civs?

[Kaiserklein]

Something to note is that the community lags behind a fair bit when it comes to noticing whether a civ is too strong, compared to top players. Consensus among them should be enough.

The community just listens to what top players say tbh. The problem is that some top players are extremely vocal about their biased opinions and it misleads the community.

[Goodspeed]

The community just listens to what top players say tbh.

Yep and there's a period between top players having noticed a problem and them effectively communicating it to everyone else.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Something to note is that the community lags behind a fair bit when it comes to noticing whether a civ is too strong, compared to top players. Consensus among them should be enough.

The community just listens to what top players say tbh. The problem is that some top players are extremely vocal about their biased opinions and it misleads the community.

I think that there's a consensus about Iro though. I don't think that any top players denies the strength or Iro. It's basically France with better units and free map control.
I'm going to share some recs where we can see how strong Iro is.

[Kaiserklein]

Well I've said months ago that iro is too strong and I just remember people laughing at me, including top players. I'm sure somppu still doesn't think iro is too strong. Back then people said it's a bad civ, "because they have a bad eco".

[[Armag] diarouga]

Ok so I'm posting 3 one sided games where the players didn't make apparent mistakes but lost to Iro



Iro vs China.
In the first game, Lukas went for the 9pikes/8bows semi ff. That was not enough to defend his TP and he got crushed in age 3.
In the second game, he decided to go for a ff (with CM because the colonial pressure does too much if you just send 8 bows or 9 pikes), same story.


Iro vs Dutch.
I go for an eco semi ff and win quite easily. The score is always very misleading against Dutch because Iro's score is underestimated (because they have stronger units) and Dutch's score is overestimated.

That's only 2 MUs but I think that this is enough to show that the civ is strong in every MU :

Iro vs Japan : If China can't hold the Iro pressure, it's the same story with Japan
Iro vs India : This one is rather fair although slightly Iro favoured but that's because India is one of the strongest civs
Iro vs Russia : See Mitoe vs diarouga from NWC, not close
Iro vs Aztec : Same as Iro vs Russia, actually it's even worse.

Iro vs France : The fre semi is weaker than the Dutch semi and Dutch gets molested so ofc Iro favoured.
Iro vs Brit : I think kaiser played that MU against miggo and knusch in tourney and it wasn't close at all.

Anyway, cba to list all the MUs but Iro is the #2 civ on the EP6. With good treasures, it can age at 4min with the slow age up, get the TP line with stagecoach timing with 4kanyas/11tomas/17 aennas and then age to fortress.
It's one of the strongest colonial civs as well as one of the strongest age 3 civ. Every time I face a good Iro, he takes the map control for free, outmasses me in colonial, goes in fortress and gets the same amount of age 3 units with better stats.

[deleted_user0]

lol... ofc u only talk about the mu's iro wins, and not about those they don't. And also, you only talk about TP and no water maps/mu's. No mention of germany, sioux or otto. Spain vs iro probably isn't bad for spain either, at least even. Ports vs iro is probably iro favored on land, but port favored on water or no tp. China vs iro is also even, or maybe even china favored if china player does it well.

also, lukas 100% made mistakes. sending CM is mistake #1, wasted a card. Can't come back from that. then he wasted the mm by sending them to defend tp he cant defend anyway, and it delayed his age up by like 20-30 sec.

The other game, you get 100w start, and it's a livestock map. Makes a huge difference to the mu. Though it's good for both, without 100w u can't do that (well you can but it will delay you a little). Lukas sent pikes first. Mistake #1. Should open bows, and make 5 disciples + use mm to defend vs 4 kanya. also he put units in the tc way too late to fire on 5 tomas or war chief. But they aren't big mistakes, so game is ok. Then he sends 700 instead of 7 steppe, he should know he can't do that. He cancels at the last moment and sends steppe, and even then he has a chance. But he doesnt take the fight with mm and just delay age up a little. You only had 5 tomahawks and a low hp WC. he couldve crushed you there, so it's not like your pressure was super strong. If he does that, he doesn't lose TP and he'll age while you are remaxing or aging yourself. Then you are either fighting 1 age down, which youll lose, or you're fighting same age same time but china will outmass. Then when the big fight happened, which he shouldn't have taken in the first place, he didn't even set consulate to brits, so it was like -10% on all units. Also, his herding was poor. AKA, game was riddled with mistakes from lukas. No offense to him.

as for the dutch game, miggo is not on your level. Win consistently vs raphael, mitoe or tabben, and I'll concede it. That said, I also do think that it's probably iro favored, or at least even.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Iro wins vs Port on TP water maps, I can tell you that from experience against Breeze and kynesie.

Iro wins vs Sioux imo and will definitely win next patch with the Sioux nerf.
Iro vs Germany is rather close but that's because ger is #1 while iro is #2.
According to bwinner, iro>Otto but yea Otto is hard.

I only mentioned TP maps coz you don't play Iro on no TP.

[Mitoe]

No offense to Breeze or Kynesie but I feel that they are pretty limited players strategically speaking. I don't think consistent wins against them really tells all that much except that you probably always knew exactly what they were doing without even scouting and just did the perfect or near-perfect counter build every game.

Iro is definitely a solid civ right now, and it's possible that they may be too strong--though I'm not really certain that they are. I think that the meta may need some time to develop, many of the current top players are unfamiliar with Iro overall, even on RE.

Unfortunately I don't really see how you change them in a way that doesn't make them terrible, either.

[[Armag] diarouga]

No offense to Breeze or Kynesie but I feel that they are pretty limited players strategically speaking. I don't think consistent wins against them really tells all that much except that you probably always knew exactly what they were doing without even scouting and just did the perfect or near-perfect counter build every game.

Iro is definitely a solid civ right now, and it's possible that they may be too strong--though I'm not really certain that they are. I think that the meta may need some time to develop, many of the current top players are unfamiliar with Iro overall, even on RE.

Unfortunately I don't really see how you change them in a way that doesn't make them terrible, either.

Iro is a great anti water civ, that's what I'm claiming, and if I can beat breeze and kynesie (who are the only water players right now), then it means that Iro doesn't lose to a port water boom.

If you want to nerf Iro, just nerf the WC aura to 10% instead of 15%. Starting the game with a free daymio sounds good, no need to start with a free shogun.

[deleted_user]

I think WC aura to %10 seems an okay nerf, iro feels quite strong on tp maps especially when they get some decent treasures.

[deleted_user0]

Iro wc nerf has already been implemented and reverted... so why just do it again.

[Mitoe]

I really don't want to touch Iro's military much. Without it they don't have much going for them, even if it is quite strong right now.

At the same time nerfing other aspects of the civ would greatly reduce their options, and right now I think they're one of the more well-designed civs as they have quite a large number of viable playstyles. I'd like to just work on bringing other civs up to speed in that regard, as well as give the meta some more time to develop around Iroquois.