Beta Japanese Discussion

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New Zealand zoom
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Beta Japanese Discussion

Post by zoom »

Please discuss anything relating specifically to the Japanese, in this thread. The following are the current changes to the civilization:

– Samurai hand attack increased from 25 to 30
– Yabusame ranged attack increased from 8 to 10

Also, please note that a bug, which allows other players to see if “2x” shipments have been sent, via deck inspection, has been fixed.

The following changes are currently being considered:

– Golden Pavilion Wonder no longer displays an icon of its current effect
– “Dutch Allies” Arsenal now features the “Ranged Cavalry Caracole” improvement
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Re: Beta Japanese Discussion

Post by n0el »

Golden Pavilion Wonder no longer displays an icon of its current effect.

yes
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Re: Beta Japanese Discussion

Post by Hazza54321 »

5 yumi to 6 is unnecessary
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Re: Beta Japanese Discussion

Post by deleted_user »

good changes overall, solid alternates to pavillion nerf.
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Re: Beta Japanese Discussion

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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

The samurai buff is too big. I think we should go for 27 or 28 first.
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Re: Beta Japanese Discussion

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Post by n0el »

I think if you fixed 300w, actually the best change is to revert the shrine change and not make any of these changes except the 2x deck and pavilion icon.
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Re: Beta Japanese Discussion

Post by Garja »

zoom wrote:Please discuss anything relating specifically to the Japanese, in this thread. The following are the current changes to the civilization:

– Samurai hand attack increased from 25 to 30 as much as I like samurais this just feels random. Attack is already their best stat (just like halbs). Unit doesn't really need any buff. Just like any meelee unit it is situational.
– Yabusame ranged attack increased from 8 to 10 idk, again makes not much sense. Unit already have 2 cards (20% each) to buff the attack, and anyway it does fine at what it's supposed to do.

Also, please note that a bug, which allowed other players to see if “2x” shipments have been sent, via deck inspection, has been fixed. This is questionable as it is something probably left there on purpose.

The following changes are currently being considered:

– Golden Pavilion Wonder no longer displays an icon of its current effect Again, I think there is a reason for it to be displayed, but w/e.
– “Dutch Allies” Arsenal now features the “Ranged Cavalry Caracole” improvement caracole for a cav archer unit :hmm: also the unit in question already has 18 range :hmm:
– “5 Yumi Archers” shipment increased to 6 Yumi Archers best colonial unit card? 660 resources, mostly wood and shipping a very useful unit :hmm:
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Re: Beta Japanese Discussion

Post by KINGofOsmane »

6 yumi card wont change much ,since u barely send it anyways.
I only saw samurai vs aztecs tbh so i am not sure if the unit will be used.
At the end it always comes down to the fact if u have a coin start or not.
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Re: Beta Japanese Discussion

Post by zoom »

Hazza54321 wrote:5 yumi to 6 is unnecessary
Everything is. If you mean undesirable (for whatever reason), it's arguable. Especially with 3 Samurai being buffed, I might agree.
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Re: Beta Japanese Discussion

Post by zoom »

n0el wrote:I think if you fixed 300w, actually the best change is to revert the shrine change and not make any of these changes except the 2x deck and pavilion icon.
Totally. The Samurai and Youabuseme are plenty viable, already.

On a serious note, though, I cannot justify fixing crates, given the recent poll's results. Please see the relevant thread, for that discussion, though.
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Re: Beta Japanese Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Yabusame is totally viable currently.
You can totally make a change in a beta, even if 40% of the community is against it. I'm pretty sure that many of the current changes (the aztec unit shipment one, the chinese one etc) wouldn't get 60% in a poll^^
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Re: Beta Japanese Discussion

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:
zoom wrote:Please discuss anything relating specifically to the Japanese, in this thread. The following are the current changes to the civilization:

– Samurai hand attack increased from 25 to 30 as much as I like samurais this just feels random. Attack is already their best stat (just like halbs). Unit doesn't really need any buff. Just like any meelee unit it is situational.
– Yabusame ranged attack increased from 8 to 10 idk, again makes not much sense. Unit already have 2 cards (20% each) to buff the attack, and anyway it does fine at what it's supposed to do.

Also, please note that a bug, which allowed other players to see if “2x” shipments have been sent, via deck inspection, has been fixed. This is questionable as it is something probably left there on purpose.

The following changes are currently being considered:

– Golden Pavilion Wonder no longer displays an icon of its current effect Again, I think there is a reason for it to be displayed, but w/e.
– “Dutch Allies” Arsenal now features the “Ranged Cavalry Caracole” improvement caracole for a cav archer unit :hmm: also the unit in question already has 18 range :hmm:
– “5 Yumi Archers” shipment increased to 6 Yumi Archers best colonial unit card? 660 resources, mostly wood and shipping a very useful unit :hmm:
I'd be happy to revert these viability buffs when players find they were already somewhat viable units.

1. I don't have an opinion on whether it's a bug. I simply trust Eaglemut's insistence. 2. Besides for technical reasons, I don't give half of a flying fuck whether it's a bug; I'm only interested in whether the change is desirable.

Like caracole for the Cavalry Archer, you mean? Now you're just being Garja! Also, the unit in question is, at best, barely viable, and has poor statistics, for its cost. Helping it scale into the late-game seems only to be a good thing, to me.

Best Colonial Japanese unit shipment – absolutely. Best Colonial unit shipment – now you're just being Garja, again!
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Re: Beta Japanese Discussion

Post by Garja »

zoom wrote:
Garja wrote:
zoom wrote:Please discuss anything relating specifically to the Japanese, in this thread. The following are the current changes to the civilization:

– Samurai hand attack increased from 25 to 30 as much as I like samurais this just feels random. Attack is already their best stat (just like halbs). Unit doesn't really need any buff. Just like any meelee unit it is situational.
– Yabusame ranged attack increased from 8 to 10 idk, again makes not much sense. Unit already have 2 cards (20% each) to buff the attack, and anyway it does fine at what it's supposed to do.

Also, please note that a bug, which allowed other players to see if “2x” shipments have been sent, via deck inspection, has been fixed. This is questionable as it is something probably left there on purpose.

The following changes are currently being considered:

– Golden Pavilion Wonder no longer displays an icon of its current effect Again, I think there is a reason for it to be displayed, but w/e.
– “Dutch Allies” Arsenal now features the “Ranged Cavalry Caracole” improvement caracole for a cav archer unit :hmm: also the unit in question already has 18 range :hmm:
– “5 Yumi Archers” shipment increased to 6 Yumi Archers best colonial unit card? 660 resources, mostly wood and shipping a very useful unit :hmm:

I'd be happy to revert these viability buffs when players find they were already somewhat viable units.

1. I don't have an opinion on whether it's a bug. I simply trust Eaglemut's insistence. 2. Besides for technical reasons, I don't give half of a flying fuck whether it's a bug; I'm only interested in whether the change is desirable.

Like caracole for the Cavalry Archer, you mean? Now you're just being Garja! Also, the unit in question is, at best, barely viable, and has poor statistics, for its cost. Helping it scale into the late-game seems only to be a good thing, to me.

Best Colonial Japanese unit shipment – absolutely. Best Colonial unit shipment – now you're just being Garja, again!

I already found them more than a somewhat viable unit, or I wouldn't tell you the buff is random and the unit is ok.
Bug what? 2x or what? If it's not a buf it is not desireable to remove it, it should be that simple.
I mean they dont have pistol hence the tech is dumb. What is even more dumb is that you're treating yabusame as goons as if they were supposed to be equally good vs cav, equally viable, equally period. It's a different unit. I could make an argument for standardization but it's not even just that. It is simply that the unit is fine as it is. It counters artillery and it helps vs cav. And it has already 2 cards for more attack in case you want to use it purely like goons (which is against the design of the civ since you have like 3 other anticav units).
Idk what you base your statements of "barely viable and bs". As if 10 nubs voicing for nonsense buffs make any sense. Or do you base it on your own experience of non playing player?!
Ye as if double 6 yumi shipment isn't straight up better than, for comparison, 6 lbows, both res and power wise.

Honestly when you fuck up with these things you just shows that you have no clue.
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Re: Beta Japanese Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

you base your statements of "barely viable and bs"


10 nubs voicing for nonsense buffs make any sense


do you base it on your own experience of non playing player?!


Honestly when you fuck up with these things you just shows that you have no clue.


Ouch. :ohmy:
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Re: Beta Japanese Discussion

Post by Cometk »

@Garja

removing x2 shipment from displaying is a buff. an intentional buff

ranged cavalry caracole also affects cavalry archer type units, so i don't understand your insistence that it should only be granted to goon-type units?
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Re: Beta Japanese Discussion

Post by Garja »

Cometk wrote:@Garja

removing x2 shipment from displaying is a buff. an intentional buff

ranged cavalry caracole also affects cavalry archer type units, so i don't understand your insistence that it should only be granted to goon-type units?

Yes it is. I don't think jap really needs it tho. But we can test I guess.
Ok fair enough for the cav archer thing. But yabusame is still a different unit than both goons and CA (and keshik for what it matters). It has 18 range already, different ranged reistance and its multiplier suggests it counter artillery. My point is that there is a reason why caracole was left out of the japanese arsenal. Then again we want to completely change the game so go ahead make Yabusame an actually good unit so that Japan can simply go yumi-yabusame as any other skirm-goon civ.
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Re: Beta Japanese Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I agree with Garja here. Yabusame weren't designed to hard counter cav or to fight infantry, they're like culvs and they're quite good at they job (killing artillery) honestly.
We don't see them because we don't really see Japan going to late game (kynesie is in fact the only player who tries to do that, the others like turk and tabben are more agressive), and people don't make artillery against Japan (because you need to make falcs AND culvs against Japan which is quite slow).
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Re: Beta Japanese Discussion

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Post by Garja »

zoom wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:5 yumi to 6 is unnecessary
Everything is. If you mean undesirable (for whatever reason), it's arguable. Especially with 3 Samurai being buffed, I might agree.

Some changes are indeed necessary. The fact that you fail to aknowledge the difference between necessary and arbitrary is the cause of all problems.
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Re: Beta Japanese Discussion

Post by deleted_user »

n0el wrote:I think if you fixed 300w, actually the best change is to revert the shrine change and not make any of these changes except the 2x deck and pavilion icon.

I think so Japan struggles with coin start most, would be really nice if we can test fixed crates, it's just a beta and if we don't approve it, can revert
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Re: Beta Japanese Discussion

Post by Garja »

Actually vs some civs the coin start is almost better because it also nerfs opponent's strat. It's just the same story once again.
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Re: Beta Japanese Discussion

Post by deleted_user »

Garja wrote:Actually vs some civs the coin start is almost better because it also nerfs opponent's strat. It's just the same story once again.

not really, 100c start effects japan/iroq/india most. As eu civs you can go market with it but as japan you have to chop 100wood and it slows you down a lot, same for india.
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Re: Beta Japanese Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

100c affects Iro less than India and Japan. India and Japan suffer the most from it.
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Re: Beta Japanese Discussion

Post by deleted_user »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:100c affects Iro less than India and Japan. India and Japan suffer the most from it.

I don't don't know why fixed crates are not implemented still, basicly everyone agrees to implement it other than kaiser/garja, even Mitoe is fine with testing it, most important part is it has nothing to do with changing the game or balance, also the poll result is heavily yes, just give it a try
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Re: Beta Japanese Discussion

Post by Kynesie »

Golden pavilion icon can be used as a shortcut to select the wonder ( like tp icon or shrine icon).
About samurai ( and halbs) , i think it s better to try a good buff first : if you don t buff these units enough resulting in that they are not use more, and as they will already be buffed, it will be very hard to argue for a new buff later. On the contrary, if you overbuff an unit, you can be sure it will be nerf at the next ep iteration, which seems better to get the right balance.

[Armag] diarouga wrote:people don't make artillery against Japan (because you need to make falcs AND culvs against Japan which is quite slow).

I don t agree with this specific point, i feel people does it and it s overall often a good choice.
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Re: Beta Japanese Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Can we lower the yabusame multiplier vs artillery?

The unit was already very good against artillery (good dps and takes forever to kill) but with that damage buff it will be too much.

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