Beta Ottomans Discussion

[zoom]

Please discuss anything relating specifically to the Ottomans, in this thread. The following are the current changes to the civilization:

– "Koprulu Viziers" improvement moved from Colonial to Discovery Age
– "Tanzimat" improvement moved from Industrial to Fortress Age
– Imam heal-rate increased from 10 to 20 hitpoints per second
– Spahi ranged resistance increased from 10% to 20%

The following changes are currently being considered:

– "Janissary Combat" home-city shipment decreased from 20% to 15% [revert]
– Spahi ranged resistance increased from 20% to 30%
– Great Bombard hitpoints increased from 475 to 600

[zoom]

At this time, I remain unconvinced of both that the "Veteran Abus Guns" improvement warrants a buff, in the first place, and that nerfing it is warranted, in the second. I think it's quite strong, but I don't see a lot of Abus Guns, in Fortress, and I've seen some argue that it's warranted.

[Mitoe]

– Great Bombard hitpoints increased from 475 to 600

Why though? Feels like this just makes the revolt way too strong.

– Spahi ranged resistance increased from 10% to 30%

Given how tanky the Ottoman Fortress army already is, I would prefer to start at 20%.

[Garja]

Please discuss anything relating specifically to the Ottomans, in this thread. The following are the current changes to the civilization:



The following changes are currently being considered:


– Imam heal-rate increased from 10 to 20 hitpoints per second
– "Janissary Combat" home-city shipment decreased from 20% to 15% [revert]
– Spahi ranged resistance increased from 10% to 30%
– Great Bombard hitpoints increased from 475 to 600

- imam gotta be the most boarderline useless change? for what even? make mosque more appetible? heal mams?
- jans vs lancers will be so fun on this beta lol
- spahi have 10% rr because they're OP in everything else. It's a safety measure. Even 20% is too good.
- since when great bombards need a buff?

[deleted_user]

why do we even need to nerf jan combat? I mean jans are performing bad against cav, I hope jan combat will remain as %20.
I can't see abus range moved to age4 aswell, this change is defenitely required because some civs have no answer to 20 range abus in age3.

[Cometk]

keep in mind that "The following changes are currently being considered:" means, they are not in the current EP7.0.0.0 beta iteration. none of these changes have been made yet.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I still believe that Otto is too strong on some maps, and the abus range is game breaking. Some civs just can't counter 20 range abus, we have to do something about it.
If you don't nerf the abus range, at least give culvs a bonus against abus so that you have a way to counter them.
Moving abus range to industrial is the best solution imo.

[Kaiserklein]

– "Koprulu Viziers" improvement moved from Colonial to Discovery Age
– "Tanzimat" improvement moved from Industrial to Fortress Age

Fine changes

– Imam heal-rate increased from 10 to 20 hitpoints per second

Probably useless but I guess why not

– "Janissary Combat" home-city shipment decreased from 20% to 15% [revert]

This shouldn't be reverted, the card is fine.

– Spahi ranged resistance increased from 10% to 30%

This is too much, spahis are strong already in some situations. Maybe 20%.

– Great Bombard hitpoints increased from 475 to 600

Why? Bombards aren't super strong but not terrible either, and this is a huge buff.

[Hazza54321]

can we move ottos last mosque up for vill limit to fortress please

[Peachrocks]

can we move ottos last mosque up for vill limit to fortress please

That’s Tanzimat. It’s already in there and definitely yes. Rest aside Janissary card and Spahi seem okay. 20RR if you must but honestly I still think Spahi are solid.

[Hazza54321]

Id even go as low as 15 for spahi but maybe 20 would be fine

[bwinner]

I agree with Kaiser, only the mosquee changes seem good to me here.
I don't think buffing spahis and bombards is a good idea because even though they aren't usually that strong, they are already very good in some situations.

[zoom]

– Great Bombard hitpoints increased from 475 to 600

Why though? Feels like this just makes the revolt way too strong.

– Spahi ranged resistance increased from 10% to 30%

Given how tanky the Ottoman Fortress army already is, I would prefer to start at 20%.

Because the Great Bombard is a unique unit that is only uniquely bad. It may feel like it, to you, but it seems unlikely, to me.

The Spahi is also a unique unit that is only uniquely bad. It's definitely tweakable, though.

[zoom]

Please discuss anything relating specifically to the Ottomans, in this thread. The following are the current changes to the civilization:



The following changes are currently being considered:


– Imam heal-rate increased from 10 to 20 hitpoints per second
– "Janissary Combat" home-city shipment decreased from 20% to 15% [revert]
– Spahi ranged resistance increased from 10% to 30%
– Great Bombard hitpoints increased from 475 to 600

- imam gotta be the most boarderline useless change? for what even? make mosque more appetible? heal mams?
- jans vs lancers will be so fun on this beta lol
- spahi have 10% rr because they're OP in everything else. It's a safety measure. Even 20% is too good.
- since when great bombards need a buff?

For making the unique unit more viable. I'm glad you asked!
Because the Janissary hasn't been changed, and the Lancer has got +1 range at the 20 minute mark? Seems silly to me! Regardless, I'd recommend using the Cavalry Archer, in that match-up.
Like the Great Bombard, the Spahi is a terrible unit. Still, I have no intention of making either unit overpowered; only less unviable. If the changes are even made, in the first place, they will be tweaked, if desirable.

[zoom]

keep in mind that "The following changes are currently being considered:" means, they are not in the current EP7.0.0.0 beta iteration. none of these changes have been made yet.

It seems a common trend to react without reading, sadly.

[zoom]

why do we even need to nerf jan combat? I mean jans are performing bad against cav, I hope jan combat will remain as %20.
I can't see abus range moved to age4 aswell, this change is defenitely required because some civs have no answer to 20 range abus in age3.

We don't; it's just an insignificant change that might not be desirable, in the first place. Reverting any such change, should be considered.

We should consider that, too. I'm simply unconvinced, and there are many conflicting opinions, on that.

[zoom]

– "Koprulu Viziers" improvement moved from Colonial to Discovery Age
– "Tanzimat" improvement moved from Industrial to Fortress Age

Fine changes

– Imam heal-rate increased from 10 to 20 hitpoints per second

Probably useless but I guess why not

– "Janissary Combat" home-city shipment decreased from 20% to 15% [revert]

This shouldn't be reverted, the card is fine.

– Spahi ranged resistance increased from 10% to 30%

This is too much, spahis are strong already in some situations. Maybe 20%.

– Great Bombard hitpoints increased from 475 to 600

Why? Bombards aren't super strong but not terrible either, and this is a huge buff.

Whether Janissary Combat is fine is not the question; the question is whether it should be buffed, from 15%. Unless a good case can be made for it, it should be reverted. Still, if it's popular enough, we could make an exception.

[zoom]

Tweaked the Spahi suggestion to 20%.

[Goodspeed]

We changed abus range to 20 because 18 range abus don't actually beat skirms in larger numbers. Abus are supposed to beat other RI, to compensate for the fact that they don't hard counter ranged cavalry.

some civs have no answer to 20 range abus in age3.

The answer to Otto's deathball is to outmass and raid. This has historically always been the answer to Otto. To abus specifically, the answer is cavalry. Every civ has cavalry.

[[Armag] diarouga]

We changed abus range to 20 because 18 range abus don't actually beat skirms in larger numbers. Abus are supposed to beat other RI, to compensate for the fact that they don't hard counter ranged cavalry.

Abus hard counter 20% RR goons. With 30% RR goons it's another story but you nerfed the goons. Abus counter the skirms if you can split fire. Otto being a no skill civ, I guess it's fair to ask the players to micro a bit.

The answer to Otto's deathball is to outmass and raid. This has historically always been the answer to Otto. To abus specifically, the answer is cavalry. Every civ has cavalry.

This is not an argument. You could give abus 75 range and still say that lol. You can't really make cav against a ff because there's no way to know if he's going jan/mam or jan/artillery so you have to skirm/goon.

[Goodspeed]

You could give abus 75 range and still say that lol.

Actually no, they would beat cavalry then.

Abus hard counter 20% RR goons. With 30% RR goons it's another story but you nerfed the goons.

The RR makes no difference for abus. I guess define hard counter, but at the very least they don't counter RC as hard as skirms do.

Abus counter the skirms if you can split fire.

During beta testing for one of the earlier EP iterations we found that skirms in larger numbers can kite abus pretty effectively. The issue wasn't that the abus player wasn't splitting fire, it was that you can't get all of them to shoot because the skirms are too far away. When only half of your abus are shooting and all of the enemy skirms are shooting, you're going to lose that cost-effectively.

[[Armag] diarouga]

If you can kite then the skirms indeed do okay. It should be your job as otto though to either snare the skirms with mams or get the range advantage with falcs. Now when playing against an otto ff you get outmassed (because Otto) and you don't even have the range advantage to hold.

[deleted_user0]

Abus soft counter goons, at best. And only in numbers.

[Garja]

Please discuss anything relating specifically to the Ottomans, in this thread. The following are the current changes to the civilization:



The following changes are currently being considered:


– Imam heal-rate increased from 10 to 20 hitpoints per second
– "Janissary Combat" home-city shipment decreased from 20% to 15% [revert]
– Spahi ranged resistance increased from 10% to 30%
– Great Bombard hitpoints increased from 475 to 600

- imam gotta be the most boarderline useless change? for what even? make mosque more appetible? heal mams?
- jans vs lancers will be so fun on this beta lol
- spahi have 10% rr because they're OP in everything else. It's a safety measure. Even 20% is too good.
- since when great bombards need a buff?

For making the unique unit more viable. I'm glad you asked!
Because the Janissary hasn't been changed, and the Lancer has got +1 range at the 20 minute mark? Seems silly to me! Regardless, I'd recommend using the Cavalry Archer, in that match-up.
Like the Great Bombard, the Spahi is a terrible unit. Still, I have no intention of making either unit overpowered; only less unviable. If the changes are even made, in the first place, they will be tweaked, if desirable.

Because, janissary are known to not fully counter cav (especially lancers) since vanilla. Now jans have less hp and lancer caballeros get that extra range (which is very sneaky and op btw).
Spahi is a great unit vs what is supposed to be good: infantry. It's literally the best cav when it comes to hp and damage. 10% is to compensate for it, or it would be unkillable. 30% spahi is out of discussion, it's like the dog soldier BB but way stronger.
Bombards are by no mean a terrible units wtf are you smoking. Both units are employed regualarly as Otto.

[deleted_user0]

Lol, spahi terrible, thats funny...