Beta Portuguese Discussion

[zoom]

Please discuss anything relating specifically to the Portuguese, in this thread. The following are the current changes to the civilization:

– 100f [revert] and 100c added to starting crates
– Settler cost increased from 85f to 100f [revert]
– "Gunpowder Infantry Attack" shipment moved from Industrial to Colonial Age
– "TEAM Gunpowder Infantry Hitpoints" shipment moved from Industrial to Fortress Age
– Cassador ranged attack “rate-of-fire” increased (nerfed) from 3.0 to 3.5; ranged attack increased from 17 to 20
– Organ Gun limber mode speed increased from 1.6 to 2.4; train-points decreased from 45 to 40

The following changes are currently being considered:

– "Besteiros" improvement cost reduced from 2400w to 2000w

[Mitoe]

– 100f and 100c added to starting crates [partial revert]

Why add 100c to starting crates? Seems odd. Just forces market on 200c without any thought.

[Peachrocks]

I’m more confused over reverting back to 100f villies. This is arguably one of the biggest hurdles Port has off water because it’s a bonus that arguably punishes them in the short term due to lacking vill cards in compensation. I mean to be fair I only know numbers and I was going to likely stay silent in general but this change seems extremely odd to me considering most people rank them still fairly average at best.

I know the combat cards getting reshuffled helps a little though I’m unsure about team gunpowder being moved to the already crowded age 3 slot is much of a buff at all.

[Goodspeed]

This seems like a nerf and I don't think Ports need that. And I think the vill cost change was/is good and shouldn't be reverted. I do like the cassador change, but would probably go all the way and restore them to former nilla glory.

I like making bestieros cheaper.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Port was one of the weakest 1v1 civs on no ATP/water maps, and this is a nerf. This is worrying.

I'd be fine with the besteiros change and the organ buff but that wouldn't be enough to compensate the vill nerf.

[deleted_user]

this is overall a nerf, just tested some games and you get -3 vills than usual at 10 min mark, I think best fix would be adding -10food to vill cost once you moved to colonial age, if not possible, bringing RE ports back totally would be better than the current alternates.

[[Armag] diarouga]

RE Port is better then EP7 Port yea, that's funny considering it used to be the worst civ.

[Garja]

Please discuss anything relating specifically to the Portuguese, in this thread. The following are the current changes to the civilization:

– 100f and 100c added to starting crates [partial revert] Simply why? Why 100g? I get it's to buff the civ but it makes no sense whatsoever. Keep it simply and just revert the food crate
– Settler cost increased from 85f to 100f [revert] ok
– "Gunpowder Infantry Attack" shipment moved from Industrial to Colonial Age let's try it I guess
– "TEAM Gunpowder Infantry Hitpoints" shipment moved from Industrial to Fortress Age just move this to colonial as well, why do we have to always do fancy stuff. I can't even fit the card in fortress rack
– Cassador ranged attack “rate-of-fire” increased from 3.0 to 3.5. Attack increased from 17 to 20 at least make it ROF 4.0 or whatever it was on Nilla. 3.5 is such an akward reloading time.

The following changes are currently being considered:

– "Besteiros" improvement cost reduced from 2400w to 2000w This is a must imo, especially if changing cassadors to a unique unit. Need to consider the exact cost/units we want the card to have. 2k 20 xbows is reasonable, but I'd try to make it more viable with 1.6k 16 xbows.
– Organ Gun limber mode speed increased from 1.6 to 2.4; train-points decreased from 45 to 40 ok I guess.

[deleted_user0]

don't more musk hp to age2. Ports doesn't have to be another brits.

[Mitoe]

The one nice thing about reverting the vill cost and returning the crate is that you can 10/10 again--this opens up some more options.

They definitely need a couple more buffs if they want to remain competitive after this change, however. I like the 3 organs for 200c change that was suggested last patch iteration.

Basteiro / Organ buffs also seem fine.

[[Armag] diarouga]

The option to 10/10 is nice but yea, balance first.

[deleted_user]

I think there is 2 options to go, 1st one is go back to EP1 Porto where vills would cost 80food, ( even with 80f vills porto was average civ ) so they would have chance with better economy but worse units, I still think we should implement %25 goon RR as porto since cassadors are slightly worse than skirms and organs are worse than falconets. However if 1st one doesn't sound okay, we would go for 100f/100c start but 90food vills once you reach age2, and 85food vills once you go fortress. I think porto has weakness in many ways and it should be playable civ on land maps back again.

[Garja]

I don't like the 3 organ for 200g change because if you ever want 2 organs alone you don't have it anymore. Also 2 falc weakness is sort of a loophole for Ports who have to use CM or play around that weakness somehow.

The option to 10/10 is nice but yea, balance first.

If balance comes first then vill cost should be reverted regardless as cheaper vills is simply not balanced.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Cheaper vills is balanced.
You don't like the design, fair enough, but it has never been a balance issue.

[deleted_user]

I don't know why Porto was even nerfed at ep3 or ep4 to be honest, like Porto was already average civ, 80f vills were quite fair.

[Garja]

Cheaper vills is balanced.
You don't like the design, fair enough, but it has never been a balance issue.

It is not balanced because they scale in a very retarded way. We just accept it because at the moment they're not very popular.

[Peachrocks]

Sorry but it’s balanced. Portugal isn’t dominating games, if anything they could use further buffs. Popular or no, if Portugal was imbalanced, people would be playing them like crazy because people like to win. This isn’t happening.

Going ahead with the proposed changes will make them significantly worse.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Cheaper vills is balanced.
You don't like the design, fair enough, but it has never been a balance issue.

It is not balanced because they scale in a very retarded way. We just accept it because at the moment they're not very popular.

There's a difference between balance in a real game and design.
'They scale in a very retarded way" is a design issue (although I disagree with that statement), not a balance issue. If you allow Port to go late game without hurthing them you deserve to lose.

You could also say that gendarmes scale in a very retarded way, but that wouldn't make them unbalanced as you never reach that point.

[Garja]

It's also a balance issue. For example Aztecs has no chance because of that. But also most of other euro civs feel the same vs Ports. Again, it's accepted cause on one hand Ports are not that much used (and abused), on the other they often lose militarly. This doesn't mean it's balanced as it's 2 extremes one of which arbitrarily created by the EP.

Gendarmes also scale retardely hence why we talked about making them scale from colonial stats. This is even less of priority hence why players are fine with it. And also it's a more marginal occurency, while with Ports it can happen quite frequently that they get away with their boom.

[Garja]

Sorry but it’s balanced. Portugal isn’t dominating games, if anything they could use further buffs. Popular or no, if Portugal was imbalanced, people would be playing them like crazy because people like to win. This isn’t happening.

Going ahead with the proposed changes will make them significantly worse.

People used Ports for a while. With civs it goes with trends.
I do play Ports myself and their progression in midgame is disgusting.
they could use further buffs militarly, yes. Economically they already outscale with 100f vills and on EP maps you don't have this terrible food shortage problem anyway.

[deleted_user]

for the record they don't outscale with 100f vills, I had chance to test them on ep7 enough and you get 3 or 4 less vills than you could get by 10th min on ep6. They are on the same tier with aztecs in terms of having worst age3 units, Beckmala will find a better solution I believe :)

[[Armag] diarouga]

It's also a balance issue. For example Aztecs has no chance because of that. But also most of other euro civs feel the same vs Ports. Again, it's accepted cause on one hand Ports are not that much used (and abused), on the other they often lose militarly. This doesn't mean it's balanced as it's 2 extremes one of which arbitrarily created by the EP.

Gendarmes also scale retardely hence why we talked about making them scale from colonial stats. This is even less of priority hence why players are fine with it. And also it's a more marginal occurency, while with Ports it can happen quite frequently that they get away with their boom.

Aztecs have no chance because the civ is shit (which is a balance issue), not because of the scaling.

[bwinner]

I don't like cheaper vils because it makes ports broken : go age to boom and camp becomes too strong. I would like to have 100f vils and compensate with something else.

[[Armag] diarouga]

You'd do the same with 100f vills and another buff, it's just the design of the civ.

[deleted_user]

I don't like cheaper vils because it makes ports broken : go age to boom and camp becomes too strong. I would like to have 100f vils and compensate with something else.

Eh what would you suggest about Ports? They were considered one of the worst civ among with Spain/Aztecs and they recieve nerfs instead of fix, porto turtle is not even broken, it's even bad most mu's if you know what to do against them. Currently porto might be worse than Aztecs on EP7