Beta Portuguese Discussion

[deleted_user0]

Make port vils more expensive every age.

80 in 1
90 in 2
100 in 3
110 in 4
120 in 5

[[Armag] diarouga]

No.

[Goodspeed]

Would rather make them cheaper every age like aoe2 india. That way you can still add the food crate and leave the 10/10 option open but also leave the FF turtle option open.
Idk why people like the 10/10 thing for Port though. It's not strategically interesting and doesn't fit the civ at all.

[deleted_user0]

Would rather make them cheaper every age like aoe2 india. That way you can still add the food crate and leave the 10/10 option open but also leave the FF turtle option open.
Idk why people like the 10/10 thing for Port though. It's not strategically interesting and doesn't fit the civ at all.

But ports get more tc's for free with every age, it's quite good already. Making the vils cheaper with every age would increase that advantage incrementally. Decreasing will also make ports scale even better in the late game, while they need the opposite. They need to be better early on, rather than hit 99 vils even faster than they already do

If ports didnt get free tcs then sure.

Also, who are you to decide what fits or doesnt fit a civ. I find that an odd statement tbh. And it actually does fit the civ :/ high vil start count, 2nd tc can be used as forward drop off point. And also you can compensate for cutting vils early on because youll have multiple tcs later. Tcs providing housing space. On 200w start or with a good wood tres u get a tp without slowing down age up like u otherwise do. Etc. It actually makes the game more strategically interesting as you'pl hace to consider this aggressive possibility by ports. Othetwise you just pretty much can blindly bank on ports playing defensively...

@Diarouga why not

[[Armag] diarouga]

It doesn't make sense to have more expensive vills when you age. Aging should be an advantage, not a disadvantage.

[deleted_user0]

It doesn't make sense to have more expensive vills when you age. Aging should be an advantage, not a disadvantage.

you get more tc's so the early advantage is canceled by a later advantage, that's the idea. But if you think that 110 and 120 in IV and V is too much, you can just cap it at 100 at age3. This way you'll have to choose, cheaper vils but less tcs, or more tc's but more expensive vills. I don't think 90f or 100f is a big problem for ports in age3 in any case.

[Peachrocks]

I'm still immensely confused over why this is a topic for discussion. Port is NOT OP and I don't even remotely know why nerfing them is even being considered. The extra gold start and combat cards are hardly compensation.

[zoom]

I'm still immensely confused over why this is a topic for discussion. Port is NOT OP and I don't even remotely know why nerfing them is even being considered. The extra gold start and combat cards are hardly compensation.

It isn't; cheaper Settlers being replaced with another buff is being considered. I'm happy to try other options, and tweak changes.

[zoom]

– 100f and 100c added to starting crates [partial revert]

Why add 100c to starting crates? Seems odd. Just forces market on 200c without any thought.

Because it's a decent general buff, that is disproportionately unhelpful to early fishing builds, while changing as little as possible.

That's random crates, for you!

[zoom]

I’m more confused over reverting back to 100f villies. This is arguably one of the biggest hurdles Port has off water because it’s a bonus that arguably punishes them in the short term due to lacking vill cards in compensation. I mean to be fair I only know numbers and I was going to likely stay silent in general but this change seems extremely odd to me considering most people rank them still fairly average at best.

I know the combat cards getting reshuffled helps a little though I’m unsure about team gunpowder being moved to the already crowded age 3 slot is much of a buff at all.

I don't want to go against the pre-existing feature of infantry improvement shipments being delayed, but making it less extreme is both helpful to the civilization's strength, before the late game, and opens up options in Colonial and Fortress. Maybe the combat shipment being in Industrial is distinctive enough, on its own.

[zoom]

Please discuss anything relating specifically to the Portuguese, in this thread. The following are the current changes to the civilization:

– 100f and 100c added to starting crates [partial revert] Simply why? Why 100g? I get it's to buff the civ but it makes no sense whatsoever. Keep it simply and just revert the food crate
– Settler cost increased from 85f to 100f [revert] ok
– "Gunpowder Infantry Attack" shipment moved from Industrial to Colonial Age let's try it I guess
– "TEAM Gunpowder Infantry Hitpoints" shipment moved from Industrial to Fortress Age just move this to colonial as well, why do we have to always do fancy stuff. I can't even fit the card in fortress rack
– Cassador ranged attack “rate-of-fire” increased from 3.0 to 3.5. Attack increased from 17 to 20 at least make it ROF 4.0 or whatever it was on Nilla. 3.5 is such an akward reloading time.

The following changes are currently being considered:

– "Besteiros" improvement cost reduced from 2400w to 2000w This is a must imo, especially if changing cassadors to a unique unit. Need to consider the exact cost/units we want the card to have. 2k 20 xbows is reasonable, but I'd try to make it more viable with 1.6k 16 xbows.
– Organ Gun limber mode speed increased from 1.6 to 2.4; train-points decreased from 45 to 40 ok I guess.

It makes good sense as a general buff. Please see my above posts.

Will consider moving the TEAM shipment to Colonial, and making Cassadors 4.5 RoF.

I don't see the importance of buffing Besteiros, but I do see it being popular.

[Peachrocks]

I'm still immensely confused over why this is a topic for discussion. Port is NOT OP and I don't even remotely know why nerfing them is even being considered. The extra gold start and combat cards are hardly compensation.

It isn't; cheaper Settlers being replaced with another buff is being considered. I'm happy to try other options, and tweak changes.

Fair enough :). Just for reference though, say Port trains 50 vills in a game, that's 750 food difference. Pretty significant.

Still if the general 'design' of cheaper villagers isn't liked I'm not sure what else we can do. AS Fanpatch did try free hunting dogs, but I always felt that was a clumsy solution and that the cheaper vills were more elegant and fitted their style. The listed changes are simply not good enough compensation, at least in theory. The coin crate doesn't exactly help them much on land either, at least not compared to the loss of 85f vills. If anything it could be used to go towards gill nets which is a 90g cost.

[zoom]

The one nice thing about reverting the vill cost and returning the crate is that you can 10/10 again--this opens up some more options.

They definitely need a couple more buffs if they want to remain competitive after this change, however. I like the 3 organs for 200c change that was suggested last patch iteration.

Basteiro / Organ buffs also seem fine.

It's possible. Don't forget the moderate Cassador buffs, though. It seems everyone is tunnel-visioned on the coin crate.

I have two problems with the "3 Organ Guns" suggestion:

1. It's intrusive (suddenly your shipment has a cost).
2. It's risky.

[zoom]

this is overall a nerf, just tested some games and you get -3 vills than usual at 10 min mark, I think best fix would be adding -10food to vill cost once you moved to colonial age, if not possible, bringing RE ports back totally would be better than the current alternates.

It's definitely a nerf, if you ignore every other change. It's possibly a nerf, even if you don't. It's also possible for Portuguese to have cheaper Settlers – it's just controversial and flawed, and we should explore other options.

[Goodspeed]

Don't forget the moderate Cassador buffs, though. It seems everyone is tunnel-visioned on the coin crate.

I wouldn't call those changes moderate. I don't see Port sending the inf upgrades very often even if they are in colonial/fortress, and the only result of the ROF + attack changes is that cassadors will be slightly better at kiting and slightly worse in prolonged fights (more overkill).
So I would call them "insignificant", though they aren't bad changes.

[deleted_user]

this is overall a nerf, just tested some games and you get -3 vills than usual at 10 min mark, I think best fix would be adding -10food to vill cost once you moved to colonial age, if not possible, bringing RE ports back totally would be better than the current alternates.

It's definitely a nerf, if you ignore every other change. It's possibly a nerf, even if you don't. It's also possible for Portuguese to have cheaper Settlers – it's just controversial and flawed, and we should explore other options.

What I'm saying is 85food vills perform better than 100f/100coin start, and it wouldn't really matter much if porto didn't have awkard units in age3 now, basicly nerfed mams and nerfed goons make a significant effect for ports, I also don't think moving inf hp to colonial is an ideal idea, cassadors overall have so low hp and we shouldn't play with them around so much imo. Bringing nilla cassadors back is a good idea but for the best result, I think we should start discussing to tweak goons for Ports

[Garja]

It's also a balance issue. For example Aztecs has no chance because of that. But also most of other euro civs feel the same vs Ports. Again, it's accepted cause on one hand Ports are not that much used (and abused), on the other they often lose militarly. This doesn't mean it's balanced as it's 2 extremes one of which arbitrarily created by the EP.

Gendarmes also scale retardely hence why we talked about making them scale from colonial stats. This is even less of priority hence why players are fine with it. And also it's a more marginal occurency, while with Ports it can happen quite frequently that they get away with their boom.

Aztecs have no chance because the civ is shit (which is a balance issue), not because of the scaling.

The civ isn't shit, it wins other MUs. But vs 3 TCs and scaling it's hard.

[bwinner]

I don't like cheaper vils because it makes ports broken : go age to boom and camp becomes too strong. I would like to have 100f vils and compensate with something else.

Eh what would you suggest about Ports? They were considered one of the worst civ among with Spain/Aztecs and they recieve nerfs instead of fix, porto turtle is not even broken, it's even bad most mu's if you know what to do against them. Currently porto might be worse than Aztecs on EP7

I am not saying they are good, I also don't think they are great. I am saying that I find the villager discount bad because it pushes to use late game options for two reasons :
-your 3 TC boom is easier
-you need less map control because you need less food
I am not entirely sure how to compensate that though. Stronger cassadors might be the best.

[edeholland]

Thinking outside the box here and trying to come up with something that is somewhat in line with the game: what if in addition to their free Town Centers, they get starting resource crate from their home city again? The Town Center is something they get from their home city to help out, so giving them a few extra crates with that seems logical. It would give them an extra 500 resources a minute after aging. Would that be too much?

[zoom]

I'm still immensely confused over why this is a topic for discussion. Port is NOT OP and I don't even remotely know why nerfing them is even being considered. The extra gold start and combat cards are hardly compensation.

It isn't; cheaper Settlers being replaced with another buff is being considered. I'm happy to try other options, and tweak changes.

Fair enough :). Just for reference though, say Port trains 50 vills in a game, that's 750 food difference ...

If you for no good reason ignore the 100f starting difference, sure!

[zoom]

Don't forget the moderate Cassador buffs, though. It seems everyone is tunnel-visioned on the coin crate.

I wouldn't call those changes moderate. I don't see Port sending the inf upgrades very often even if they are in colonial/fortress, and the only result of the ROF + attack changes is that cassadors will be slightly better at kiting and slightly worse in prolonged fights (more overkill).
So I would call them "insignificant", though they aren't bad changes.

I am confident that the Cassador is now more or less significantly stronger, with proper micro – which is disproportionately likely before the late game. That's not even taking into account the break-point implications of going from 17 to 20, which are significant, in their own right. Otherwise, Portuguese is also benefiting from the Crossbowman and Halberdier buffs, for instance.

Regardless, I'm fully intent on making sure the civilization is strong enough. There are many options, if required. I probably wouldn't buff the Cassador, any more, and if I did, I'd try speed. Cost is an option, but would require rebalancing shipments. I'd rather make the unit stronger, than cheaper.

[zoom]

Thinking outside the box here and trying to come up with something that is somewhat in line with the game: what if in addition to their free Town Centers, they get starting resource crate from their home city again? The Town Center is something they get from their home city to help out, so giving them a few extra crates with that seems logical. It would give them an extra 500 resources a minute after aging. Would that be too much?

Those specific numbers would be very overpowered. I don't want to make the civilization significantly more reliant on aging, than it already is, though.

[deleted_user]

thing is, we should reward porto either from economy aspect or military aspect, going for 90food vills once you reach age2 is the best one to give it a test I think, if not possible, buffing cassador shipments could also be a thing eventhough I'm not sure if it would be enough,

Maybe we could go for buffing age3 shipments like +3 cassadors delivery with each shipment in age3 Kappa

[edeholland]

Thinking outside the box here and trying to come up with something that is somewhat in line with the game: what if in addition to their free Town Centers, they get starting resource crate from their home city again? The Town Center is something they get from their home city to help out, so giving them a few extra crates with that seems logical. It would give them an extra 500 resources a minute after aging. Would that be too much?

Those specific numbers would be very overpowered. I don't want to make the civilization significantly more reliant on aging, than it already is, though.

Fair enough. I don't know if Ports will ever be not reliant on aging since it's their civ bonus, but I get where you are coming from, thanks for the reply.

[deleted_user]

What is the final conclusion about ports now? @zoom