Beta Portuguese Discussion

France Kaiserklein
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Re: Beta Portuguese Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

I agree with garja about organs. However organs often shoot only half their volley or so, which is a problem imo. Just fix that, by decreasing the amount of time between bullets being shot, and organs are fine.
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Re: Beta Portuguese Discussion

Post by deleted_user »

I didn't misplay the game on arizona ^^ Erik spent so many unit shipments early game and still outboom despite I'm having ATP and so on, for the topic I'm not saying going full goon should be the meta, it wasn't even meta on RE anyway, it's just ports obviously struggle from that most. Why don't start with %25 RR atleast? or make it related to goon combat? like give additional stuff or like that. Cassadors will not be as useful as skirms until they get decent amount of hp ( which wouldnt happen because of the unit design ) so, just give it a chance
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Re: Beta Portuguese Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

You misplayed because you tried to play colo as ports vs brits, which is suicide.

Why would ports rely on goons more than france for example? It just makes no sense really, it's totally arbitrary. The only reason why ports might train more goons atm is because cassadores are underwhelming, but if they get buffed then it's different. We need to buff cassadores, not goons.
Also the port cav combat already gives an extra 5% hp and attack to goons so really why the fuck would they also have more RR than for other civs... They're already the best goons in the game. Doesn't make sense.
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Re: Beta Portuguese Discussion

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for "Why would ports rely on goons more than france" part : because port skirms have half hp of normal skirms, obviously you need stronger goons to defend them. Why does it not make any sense? Why should we nerf the main unit of ports but try to buff their secondary unit? that's not offering any more persuading stuff than what i offered imo ( back to original ports )
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Re: Beta Portuguese Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

Ok I'll just quote everything you said and answer in detail because this debate is stale.

deleted_user wrote:for "Why would ports rely on goons more than france" part : because port skirms have half hp of normal skirms
This isn't even true, cassadores have the same ranged hp, even now. They do have less hp vs melee/siege attacks but that's often not relevant.
deleted_user wrote:obviously you need stronger goons to defend them
Cassadores have more speed so they're harder to catch, and anyway who even goes hand cav vs ports in early fortress lol? You usually just go heavy on skirms yourself with enough goons to be safe, and that's what ports struggle against...
deleted_user wrote:Why does it not make any sense?
Because goons are a unit which is shared with a ton of civs, and having the same unit with different stats doesn't make sense. Plus their goons already get +5% from combat, a royal guard upgrade, and genitours. And like I explained there is ZERO reason why ports should rely on goons more than another civ anyway.
deleted_user wrote:Why should we nerf the main unit of ports but try to buff their secondary unit?
See that's where you're biased. You decided that goons are "port's main unit" and should be stronger. When in fact, like most other civs, ports want to go heavy on skirms, so cassadores would be what you call their "main unit".
And we didn't decide to "nerf the main unit of ports", we just nerfed goons overall, and again it's one of the best EP changes.
deleted_user wrote:that's not offering any more persuading stuff than what i offered imo ( back to original ports )
Reverting to RE ports will never happen because RE ports are garbage, plus they relied mostly on broken shit like 5 mams or 20 range jinetes to hope to win games, which is bad design. Not sure how you can compare that to my suggestions.
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Re: Beta Portuguese Discussion

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Kaiserklein wrote:Ok I'll just quote everything you said and answer in detail because this debate is stale.
This isn't even true, cassadores have the same ranged hp, even now. They do have less hp vs melee/siege attacks but that's often not relevant.
See, that's only one place where you are biased, in practise they perform much worse against melee cav/melee infrantry and even against artillery

Cassadores have more speed so they're harder to catch, and anyway who even goes hand cav vs ports in early fortress lol? You usually just go heavy on skirms yourself with enough goons to be safe, and that's what ports struggle against...
No? as china/spain you can just go for cav+skirm composition which is indeed hard to hold as ports

Because goons are a unit which is shared with a ton of civs, and having the same unit with different stats doesn't make sense. Plus their goons already get +5% from combat, a royal guard upgrade, and genitours. And like I explained there is ZERO reason why ports should rely on goons more than another civ anyway.
Here we go, that's where you're biased, you are talking about ports main unit not to be goons, but on the other hand you talk about dragoon combat having +%5 "so no need buff etc" stuff, even having better dragoon combat card and having genitours as port proves that the main unit of port is goons,
See that's where you're biased. You decided that goons are "port's main unit" and should be stronger. When in fact, like most other civs, ports want to go heavy on skirms, so cassadores would be what you call their "main unit".
And we didn't decide to "nerf the main unit of ports", we just nerfed goons overall, and again it's one of the best EP changes.
No? you never wanted to make heavy cassas as ports thats just something you make up now, considering RE ports having 5 mam shipment and decent goons, your composition would be something like %70 goons and %30 cassa for Obvious reason ; cassadors are not the main unit of ports
Reverting to RE ports will never happen because RE ports are garbage, plus they relied mostly on broken shit like 5 mams or 20 range jinetes to hope to win games, which is bad design. Not sure how you can compare that to my suggestions.
"Will never happen" "Never ever" I like how your tonage is like you are the leader of EP and your all ideas are the way to go and stuff, Shows about who is biased, fair enough.
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Re: Beta Portuguese Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

deleted_user wrote:
This isn't even true, cassadores have the same ranged hp, even now. They do have less hp vs melee/siege attacks but that's often not relevant.
See, that's only one place where you are biased, in practise they perform much worse against melee cav/melee infrantry and even against artillery
Of course they do, I never said the opposite lol. Just saying you're exaggerating, there are lots of cases where cassadores HP doesn't matter. And anyway it's nowhere near "half the HP"...
deleted_user wrote:
Cassadores have more speed so they're harder to catch, and anyway who even goes hand cav vs ports in early fortress lol? You usually just go heavy on skirms yourself with enough goons to be safe, and that's what ports struggle against...
No? as china/spain you can just go for cav+skirm composition which is indeed hard to hold as ports
Most civs don't. Also the correct answer to skirm+cav is goon+huss, not cassas lol. Why even complain about cassas when you're not even supposed to train them? You basically just get a few of them from the shipments, that's it.
deleted_user wrote:
Because goons are a unit which is shared with a ton of civs, and having the same unit with different stats doesn't make sense. Plus their goons already get +5% from combat, a royal guard upgrade, and genitours. And like I explained there is ZERO reason why ports should rely on goons more than another civ anyway.
Here we go, that's where you're biased, you are talking about ports main unit not to be goons, but on the other hand you talk about dragoon combat having +%5 "so no need buff etc" stuff, even having better dragoon combat card and having genitours as port proves that the main unit of port is goons,

Great logic here. Spain's main unit is lancers then? Hey they have 4 cards and a royal guard up, why aren't spanish players spamming lancers?? We need to buff them!!!11
It's funny how you use the fact that port goons are stronger than others, to explain that we need to buff them, lol. Makes no fucking sense. Instead of buffing cassadores, which actually need it...
deleted_user wrote:
See that's where you're biased. You decided that goons are "port's main unit" and should be stronger. When in fact, like most other civs, ports want to go heavy on skirms, so cassadores would be what you call their "main unit".
And we didn't decide to "nerf the main unit of ports", we just nerfed goons overall, and again it's one of the best EP changes.
No? you never wanted to make heavy cassas as ports thats just something you make up now, considering RE ports having 5 mam shipment and decent goons, your composition would be something like %70 goons and %30 cassa for Obvious reason ; cassadors are not the main unit of ports

Holy shit, it's actually hard to discuss with you. How hard is it to understand that no one masses cassadores because the unit is currently shit?? It's not because of your shitty "main unit" argument, which btw doesn't even matter in fact... It's because cassadores need a buff.
deleted_user wrote:
Reverting to RE ports will never happen because RE ports are garbage, plus they relied mostly on broken shit like 5 mams or 20 range jinetes to hope to win games, which is bad design. Not sure how you can compare that to my suggestions.
"Will never happen" "Never ever" I like how your tonage is like you are the leader of EP and your all ideas are the way to go and stuff, Shows about who is biased, fair enough.
No, it's just called having a brain. Literally no one believes 1 second that we'll revert back to RE ports lol. Why? Because no one except you even think it's a realistic option. Which shows how delusional you are. RE ports were one of the most broken civs, and by broken I mean they had huge weaknesses and huge strengths, to an extent where it's not reasonable. 20 range goons with 30% rr is ridiculous. 5 mams is ridiculous. But not being able to train units because you have to pay for vils is also fucking ridiculous.
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Re: Beta Portuguese Discussion

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Of course they do, I never said the opposite lol. Just saying you're exaggerating, there are lots of cases where cassadores HP doesn't matter. And anyway it's nowhere near "half the HP"...
"exaggerating" by what? a unit that doesnt counter anything and barely does okay against skirms, also btw even some upped pikes/rodeleros kill cassadros which is ridiculous like your statement

Most civs don't. Also the correct answer to skirm+cav is goon+huss, not cassas lol. Why even complain about cassas when you're not even supposed to train them? You basically just get a few of them from the shipments, that's it.
see it's where you are living in a fancy world and shows you don't know ports very well, do you even think you can afford to train goon huss against any civ early game?
Great logic here. Spain's main unit is lancers then? Hey they have 4 cards and a royal guard up, why aren't spanish players spamming lancers?? We need to buff them!!!11
It's funny how you use the fact that port goons are stronger than others, to explain that we need to buff them, lol. Makes no fucking sense. Instead of buffing cassadores, which actually need it...
10/10 logic here kaiser, I can say the same that the fact bowriders are stronger than other goon types so instead we should focus buffing around wakina rifles! No, I'm not biased, just buff wakinas becasue it supposed to be main unit of sioux!
Holy shit, it's actually hard to discuss with you. How hard is it to understand that no one masses cassadores because the unit is currently shit?? It's not because of your shitty "main unit" argument, which btw doesn't even matter in fact... It's because cassadores need a buff.
lmao, you are just lying to legitimate your urge to see RI are being main unit of every civ with flawed logic and so on, don't think you will ever understand since you are biased.

No, it's just called having a brain. Literally no one believes 1 second that we'll revert back to RE ports lol. Why? Because no one except you even think it's a realistic option. Which shows how delusional you are. RE ports were one of the most broken civs, and by broken I mean they had huge weaknesses and huge strengths, to an extent where it's not reasonable. 20 range goons with 30% rr is ridiculous. 5 mams is ridiculous. But not being able to train units because you have to pay for vils is also fucking ridiculous.
Don't know if you were drunk or that much desprate when you wrote this. Literally the ports you offer will have same eco of RE ports with much worse goons/mam shipments but with conditional cassadores changes, because cassa buff is way to go. Don't ask why because kaiser decided!
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Re: Beta Portuguese Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

Okay I'm just not gonna bother lol. Your logic is so flawed it's sad, you have no idea what you're talking about. I don't need to convince you anyway, since no one else will want to revert to RE ports, and your opinion will just be ignored as usual.
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Re: Beta Portuguese Discussion

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better don't because you are clueless and biased. It is actually me who shouldn't spend more time with someone who is calling anything "bad" that doesnt suit for his playstyle, talking from patronage tone + toxic as fuck and starts personal attack when disagrees with somebody.
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Re: Beta Portuguese Discussion

Post by zoom »

Kaiserklein wrote:
deleted_user wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:+100f starting crates, buff cassadores, move some infantry upgrades to earlier ages, buff organ guns and/or the 2 organ guns shipment. Isn't this just enough?
Please no more funky stuff like boosting hunting rate, giving a gold crate, or cheaper vils
What you are talking about is overall a nerf, I have explained many times ports started to struggle vs early mass civs on EP (which you agreed before) after the goon nerfs eg china/spain ( and otto thanks to 20 range abus ) just beat ports with less effort, offering random and conditional cassador changes won't change the civ any, you won't do crazy things with changed cassadors, you can call it a buff only if you micro, you can't call a conditional change as buff, that said cassadors will shot slower aswell, It seems we are going to a worse situation with the changes, as i stated before, bringing RE ports back is the way to go then.
A... Nerf? Buffing port's early fortress with a 2 organ guns buff / better cassadores, making 10/10 viable again, giving ports better late fortress units with the infantry upgrades? Instead of 85f vils?
Like G said, RE ports are garbage. Plus on land maps they only rely on dumb broken stuff like 5 mams or unkillable goons (which btw don't even matter in early fortress anyway...)
Current changes I think are a nerf compared to EP6.
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Re: Beta Portuguese Discussion

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deleted_user wrote:If the patch team has intention to never understand the fact that goon nerf effect ports mostly, then Idk what else to say, about organ buff, speed isn't the issue yea, should lower the animation if we want some real changes about them, or rather add them +1 range or something like that, I don't wanna explain why cassa buff won't change anything again and again, you can watch my game against Donald_Trump33 i posted on beta forum to get idea about that, you just can't make cassadors in some mus and even after the changes, you won't wanna go on heavy cassa, just no need for random change stuffs, %8 food gathering bonus Zoi suggested to replace with 85f is an okay deal, you will eat more hunts so you won't camp aswell, even with these changes, ports won't be in a good spot like top5 or so and that's an issue about balance imo. I even played ports land in tournaments with full of the civ potential, you probably watched my game vs erik/miggo and seen how unplayable the civ on land is right now. Imo should just stop being unnecessarily conservative about the fact that ports need real goons, not random cassadors
I'm well aware that the Dragoon nerf impacts Portuguese the most of any civilization. I've always been.
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Re: Beta Portuguese Discussion

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:Falconets can also be sniped by infantry almost as easy. I mean when you get 50 skirmsit's not like you're gonna split fire just to kill organs with less skirms and even so it's pointless since you need 2 volleys anyway to kill both.
organs just kill way way more infantry units than falcs, like not even close.

In any case I don't think I'm saying anything particularly controversial. It's pretty clear that the design of organs is aimed to be mostly a counter infantry unit while falcs more well rounded artillery.

Aside from speed and animations (I doubt this can be changed), we coud either add one more area of damage or buff them to 165hp so that culvs don't one shoot them. But I don't know if either of the 2 is desirable.
Agreed!

I'm hesitant to buff Organ Gun performance significantly (because the Cassador, which is more deserving, is being buffed, significantly). I think the current changes are sufficient, to make the unit more unique while rewarding skill, and training it more viable, in particular.
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Re: Beta Portuguese Discussion

Post by zoom »

WickedCossack wrote:
Cometk wrote:
WickedCossack wrote:Am I the only person that thinks ports are fine?

I like the 85fd villager.
EP7 beta ports have 100f villagers
Ah didn't see the changes.

I think the cheaper vil is needed and makes them a lot more fun to play. Ports is my 2nd civ for a while now and i'm not sure about any of these changes or why they are needed.

Only interesting one is nilla cass I guess.
I'm happy to explain that, then:

1. I agree that Portuguese needs a general buff. Cheaper Settlers is inferior to faster foraging and hunting, in a number of key ways: It eliminates the 10/10 option. It infringes on another civilization's feature. It counteracts the designed inherent weakness of the civilization. It buffs fishing builds more. It buffs non-military builds more. It encourages advancing to the next age. It alters starting crates. There are simply too many negatives for me to accept that change, when there are acceptable alternatives. Adding 100c to starting crates, while less problematic, is also inferior. It also doesn't seem popular.

2. The Cassador is a uniquely bad unique unit. The changes aim to make it more unique and viable.

3. The Organ Gun is an underwhelming unique unit, and not trained very often. The changes aim to make it more unique and viable to train, without buffing the "2 Organ Guns" shipment, which were risky business. If players want to, I'm happy to revert this less essential change, though. Let's poll it, soon!

4. The gunpowder infantry upgrade shipments are punitively unavailable. The changes aim to make them more viable, along with training the Cassador and the Musketeer. It is less essential, and slightly standardizing, though, and as with "3", I'm happy to revert these changes. Let's poll it, soon!
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Re: Beta Portuguese Discussion

Post by zoom »

Based on feedback and reflection, I am currently planning on making the following changes to the Portuguese:

– 100c removed from starting crates [revert]
– Foraging and hunting rates increased by 5%
– "Besteiros" improvement cost reduced from 2400w to 2000w
– Cassador ranged attack "rate-of-fire" increased (nerfed) from 3.5 to 4.5; ranged attack increased from 20 to 25 [extension]
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Re: Beta Portuguese Discussion

Post by Garja »

Don't buff the food gathering rate. Port suddendly become top civ on ASFP for reference and design-wise it's just bad.
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Re: Beta Portuguese Discussion

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:Don't buff the food gathering rate. Port suddendly become top civ on ASFP for reference and design-wise it's just bad.
The ASFP situation isn't particularly relevant, considering that this is a much smaller buff, and that there are a number of significant differences, to that patch (in terms of maps and other buffs and nerfs, to Portuguese as well as other civilizations). Design-wise, I think it's just good: The civilization spends disproportionately much food, like Dutch and Indians spend disproportionately much coin and wood, respectively. It also has a number of pros, as already outlined.

If you were to suggest an alternative general buff, I'd consider testing it, instead. Apart from buffing "House of Braganca", this seems the best option, to me. Without it, it seems likely the civilization would be underpowered.
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Re: Beta Portuguese Discussion

Post by deleted_user »

I think %5 food gathering rate is reasonable to replace with cheaper vills. Same reason why indian villagers gather wood faster and dutch villagers gather coin faster.
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Re: Beta Portuguese Discussion

Post by Garja »

Any eco buff in the first place is not needed and any of the changes proposed/adopted so far has bad design.
Indian and Dutch villagers gather faster because it's 2 slower gathering resources. Ports gather faster because...? Besides those Dutch and Indian exceptions are really crap design.
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