Beta Spanish Discussion

User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by zoom »

Please discuss anything relating specifically to the Spanish, in this thread. The following are the current changes to the civilization:

– "Spanish Gold" shipment decreased from 400c to 250c per shipment; moved to Colonial Age
– “Unction” shipment now comes with 2 Missionaries
– “Caballeros” shipment changed from +1 hand attack infantry multiplier to +1 hand attack infantry multiplier and +1 hand attack range

The following changes are currently being considered:

– “Unction” shipment attack aura increased from 4% to 5% per Missionary [revert]
– Rodelero hand attack increased from 11 to 12
– Lancer cost reduced from 110f, 90c to 100f, 90c (bounties recalculated accordingly)
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by Mitoe »

– "Spanish Gold" shipment decreased from 400c to 300c per shipment; moved to Colonial Age

I don't like this. I think it's fine as-is in Fortress. I'm afraid that this will become a must-use shipment every game after this change.


I'm also not sold on the double Unction buff. It seems too good now.
User avatar
United States of America Cometk
Retired Contributor
Posts: 7257
Joined: Feb 15, 2015
Location: California

Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by Cometk »

if unction is too good, i'm excited to see that demonstrably proven :)
Image
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

Mitoe wrote:
– "Spanish Gold" shipment decreased from 400c to 300c per shipment; moved to Colonial Age

I don't like this. I think it's fine as-is in Fortress. I'm afraid that this will become a must-use shipment every game after this change.
I like it conceptually but agree that it would probably be too good. I'd start with 250c.
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

Nobody would use it on 250g. Even with 300g I'm not completely sure. It would delay FF too much. I'm not really sure if Spanish got the buffs they deserved. Because of spain and their paper eco, you don't often have time to send Caballeros before the game is over.

Sadly, after top civs are not considerably nerfed, I feel Spanish pain-train still arrives too weak and won't be played much.
No Flag deleted_user
Ninja
Posts: 14364
Joined: Mar 26, 2015

Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by deleted_user »

I don't think moving spanish gold to age2 is a good idea, however I liked the lancer buffs.
But will it be enough? we'll see.
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

somppukunkku wrote:Nobody would use it on 250g. Even with 300g I'm not completely sure. It would delay FF too much. I'm not really sure if Spanish got the buffs they deserved. Because of spain and their paper eco, you don't often have time to send Caballeros before the game is over.

Sadly, after top civs are not considerably nerfed, I feel Spanish pain-train still arrives too weak and won't be played much.
You'd send it in transition if anything so it wouldn't delay your FF at all
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

Goodspeed wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:Nobody would use it on 250g. Even with 300g I'm not completely sure. It would delay FF too much. I'm not really sure if Spanish got the buffs they deserved. Because of spain and their paper eco, you don't often have time to send Caballeros before the game is over.

Sadly, after top civs are not considerably nerfed, I feel Spanish pain-train still arrives too weak and won't be played much.
You'd send it in transition if anything so it wouldn't delay your FF at all

That sounds like a terrible build. Especially, with 250g. I'm quite sure 5v is better. Maybe only with TP start.
With 300g it sounds realistic to send spanish gold, skip 700g and make FF with better eco but a little bit slower.

Mart, you should play the game more to get more updated/realistic picture of builds :P
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

  • Quote

Post by Goodspeed »

And you would benefit from a math class... 5v gather 250c in about 75 seconds with placer mines, and keep in mind that depletes your coin mine while this shipment wouldn't. Spain's shipments arrive much faster than once per 75 seconds in early fortress. In early fort the shipment would be worth about 8 vills and would slowly decrease in value as you send more shipments but it does save coin mines. On top of that it comes with 250 immediately, which would take the 5v 75 seconds to match.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I really dislike that Spanish gold change. The 500f age up/spanish gold build could be too strong. Also it could change the meta too much. Why don't we go for normal buffs? Give Spain an exp bonus and we're fine.
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

8v would mean you send shipments non-stop which doesn't happen. One shipment per 75 seconds sounds more realistic but the value dissapears over time.
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

Colonial 300g spanish gold is obviously too strong.
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

Hazza vs Kaiserklein. Mono-civ final in Fertile crescent. Hazza does traditional FF.

5v - 6.43
Spanish gold - 8:09
1k wood - 9:32
1k food 10:32.
2 falcs 12:18.

Replace 5v with spanish gold. Spanish gold would have yielded 1250 gold. 5v would have gathered 1100 gold.
This includes GS's "bonus 250g" for having it instantly.

Now disadvantages:
-Assuming you send units to the outpost, also your gold spawns there.
-Probably around next shipment, 5v starts outgathering spanish gold.
-Okay, placer mines is calculated there but account that also gathering the crates takes VS.
-Your gold income is not linear like with 5v.

Yes, your gold mine depletes faster but is it really a realistic problem for spain?

Now, assuming we want to buff spain, because it is obviously worse than top civs, I just manage fail to see, how 300g spanish gold would be too strong. Theoretically.

@Goodspeed
Please point out if I did my math wrong somehow. By the way, hazza sending crates, not units, might even favour theoretically spanish gold as it making units with crates boosts your xp income.

Now explain me, how is this so significant that it shifts Spanish top civ?
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

I also find it amusing that some members tend to only state things like "it's obviously too strong" and just hit likes based on who is writing/who is somebody arguing against without giving it the subject any kind actual thought. Really constructive.
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

Also, I really wonder how many elo pages we have to go through to find a spanish game by kaiser or dia.....
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

somppukunkku wrote:Also, I really wonder how many elo pages we have to go through to find a spanish game by kaiser or dia.....

I used to play Spain a lot and I'm quite good with Spain honestly. The civ is weak and not very fun so I don't play it anymore. I played it on NE and HP in the NWC qualifiers though.
User avatar
Netherlands Mr_Bramboy
Retired Contributor
Donator 01
Posts: 8219
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: [VOC] Bram
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

somppukunkku wrote:I also find it amusing that some members tend to only state things like "it's obviously too strong" and just hit likes based on who is writing/who is somebody arguing against without giving it the subject any kind actual thought. Really constructive.

somppukunkku wrote:Also, I really wonder how many elo pages we have to go through to find a spanish game by kaiser or dia.....


Although you make a decent point, try to stay friendly and constructive yourself in this subforum to make sure the discussion remains healthy. You've made your points regarding Spanish Gold, we will wait now on the others to defend their case.
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:Also, I really wonder how many elo pages we have to go through to find a spanish game by kaiser or dia.....

I used to play Spain a lot and I'm quite good with Spain honestly. The civ is weak and not very fun so I don't play it anymore. I played it on NE and HP in the NWC qualifiers though.

I was just about to edit that yea you have probably played some games.

The civ is weak. Above I show using a very top level game on TP map that spanish gold with 250g would bring minimal, or possibly even negative net impact. Atleast the way GS would use it.

Now, show me why would Spanish be too strong with 300g?
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

somppukunkku wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:Also, I really wonder how many elo pages we have to go through to find a spanish game by kaiser or dia.....

I used to play Spain a lot and I'm quite good with Spain honestly. The civ is weak and not very fun so I don't play it anymore. I played it on NE and HP in the NWC qualifiers though.

I was just about to edit that yea you have probably played some games.

The civ is weak. Above I show using a very top level game on TP map that spanish gold with 250g would bring minimal, or possibly even negative net impact. Atleast the way GS would use it.

Now, show me why would Spanish be too strong with 300g?

It wouldn't be too strong, it would just be an annoying change to the meta. I think that sending spanish gold instead of 5v would indeed be a mistake but you could age with 500f and spanish gold.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by Garja »

I already used spanish gold in colo, there are surely benefits in doing that. Instead of 700w 5v 700g you can go 700w spanish gold 5v. You do net some less resources at start (100g+5v start gathering later), but then it's lot of free resources. I imagine you can also use it in place of 700g with the standard FF in not aggressive MUs.
I also don't like having it in colonial. It's even harder to fit it in the colonial rack of shipments.
Also not sure about unction buff, I agree it feels a bit too good now. I simply wouldn't touch it, but you can consider a church wagon instead of 2 missionares. Alternatively 2 missionaries but no cost reduction.
Image Image Image
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

somppukunkku wrote:Hazza vs Kaiserklein. Mono-civ final in Fertile crescent. Hazza does traditional FF.

5v - 6.43
Spanish gold - 8:09
1k wood - 9:32
1k food 10:32.
2 falcs 12:18.

Replace 5v with spanish gold. Spanish gold would have yielded 1250 gold. 5v would have gathered 1100 gold.
This includes GS's "bonus 250g" for having it instantly.

Now disadvantages:
-Assuming you send units to the outpost, also your gold spawns there.
-Probably around next shipment, 5v starts outgathering spanish gold.
-Okay, placer mines is calculated there but account that also gathering the crates takes VS.
-Your gold income is not linear like with 5v.

Yes, your gold mine depletes faster but is it really a realistic problem for spain?

Now, assuming we want to buff spain, because it is obviously worse than top civs, I just manage fail to see, how 300g spanish gold would be too strong. Theoretically.

@Goodspeed
Please point out if I did my math wrong somehow. By the way, hazza sending crates, not units, might even favour theoretically spanish gold as it making units with crates boosts your xp income.

Now explain me, how is this so significant that it shifts Spanish top civ?
Did he not have a TP?

Regardless 1250 > 1100 and it gets you 250 immediately which 5v doesn't. And you said you were "quite sure" 5v was better? I'm quite sure the SG was better in that scenario.

I never said Spain would be too strong with colonial 300c Spanish gold, I just think it would make the shipment a must-send and would rather have it be an option.
Australia Peachrocks
Lancer
Posts: 506
Joined: Jul 11, 2019
ESO: Peachrocks

Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by Peachrocks »

Personally I think the idea behind the Spanish gold shipment needs to be remembered. It's supposed to give Spain options outside of mindlessly clicking cards and shoving them all at the opponent in early fortress and basically playing without a civ bonus and no ranged combat cards (other than Unction) outside of this.

Making it colonial will either make it a must have or inferior to 5 vill with very little wiggle room in the middle. Being in Fortress means the player must make a conscious choice of whether they want to go all in, or whether they want to try and compete long term. You could boost the age 3 version to 500 if the community feels that 400 is just not worthwhile.

As for Unction. The idea of it giving 2 missionaries is so that there is an 'instant' nature to it. All other combat cards work immediately. Unction does not. Also, on paper it sounds amazing, but training and keeping units in range of those missionaries is a pain and can reduce strategic options in exchange for this amazing paper buff.
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by Mitoe »

I just don't understand why it needs to be changed. It's in a good spot right now.
User avatar
United States of America Cometk
Retired Contributor
Posts: 7257
Joined: Feb 15, 2015
Location: California

Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by Cometk »

Mitoe wrote:I just don't understand why it needs to be changed. It's in a good spot right now.

Unction, or Spanish Gold?
Image
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by Mitoe »

Spanish Gold, sorry.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV