Beta Spanish Discussion

[Cometk]

I just don't understand why it needs to be changed. It's in a good spot right now.

Unction, or Spanish Gold?

Spanish Gold, sorry.

Understood. Agreed.

[Goodspeed]

I just don't understand why it needs to be changed. It's in a good spot right now.

Well is anyone sending it?
I suppose simply increasing the amount of gold would also help viability.

[Cometk]

tabben used it in his revo strat vs diarouga’s China at lan, is a recent memory I have of the card being really efficient in a top level game. it’s an option, not always the right one but definitely an option in some matchups.

[flontier]

age3 gold card was fine but if its not sent often its normal, we give an eco option to spain with the gold card meanwhile we're buffing their shipement and units, so rip eco option and go on the aggr FF which is make better by the units stats and units shipment buff change more than the eco play is reinforce by the spanish gold.

[Kaiserklein]

I also find it amusing that some members tend to only state things like "it's obviously too strong" and just hit likes based on who is writing/who is somebody arguing against without giving it the subject any kind actual thought. Really constructive.

For the record I was at GS's and Xelee's place and discussed spanish gold with GS, and we came to the conclusion that 300g colo spanish gold is too strong. That's why I hit the like button. But sure.

Anyway, the point is that you can replace 700g by spanish gold, so you don't really need to invest a shipment into that card. Like diarouga said you could even age 500f instead of tower + 200g and probably click up barely later than with the current ff. Or you could just age 40s (1 card) later, doing spanish gold/5v with market ups and a TP, and have just a much better eco than now. Obviously that's for match ups where you're not getting rushed. Same when doing atp, you anyway can't age up directly with 700g if you build like 4 atps, so you might as well ship spanish gold + 5v or 700w and age like that.

I wanted to try spanish gold builds on the beta and post a rec but I can't launch my beta anymore.

[Kaiserklein]

I just don't understand why it needs to be changed. It's in a good spot right now.

Well is anyone sending it?
I suppose simply increasing the amount of gold would also help viability.

No one is sending it because basically no one plays spain. And the few who do apparently didn't experiment much with that card. I also think spanish gold is fine atm, in some match ups. I remember playing vs mookie's spain and he went spanish gold vs my france, and it was very close though I didn't really make mistakes, he only lost in late fortress because of cav combat cuirs.

[Hazza54321]

I think spanish gold is terrible from a design pov and a fun POV. Id honestly give spain 8v 1k gold and or xp boost so they have a follow up to the push rather than spanish first and turning spain into yet another nr15 civ. Their shipments are not that great minus 2 falc 5 lancer so that is why i propose those changes

[Goodspeed]

Nothing is stopping us from adding 8v, 1k gold and or an XP boost in addition to SG. I'd consider the XP boost first in that case.

[Cometk]

isn't that "standardizing"?

[Goodspeed]

Not the XP boost which is why I'd consider that first

[deleted_user0]

Spain should return to nilla xp values tbh. It's a small buff in percentages but its a huge difference in practice.

I like spanish gold, it gives spain an option to greed in age3, while its clearly not so good that its the best option every game. If your opponent pressure, you just cant send it without costing you the game.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea, just go for nilla Spain instead of the weird spanish gold change.

[deleted_user]

I agree, going for nilla Spain is much better than random changes.

[Garja]

Spanish gold was fine in last EP iteration. Not the best change but community seems to have metabolized it. Moving it to colonial is also too intrusive, on top of other objections already made.

[deleted_user0]

I'm ok with spanish gold in age3, in age2 it's fine as well, its really greedy (since you go spanish gold + 5v = 600c instead of 700), and you cant do it vs agro. It slows down your ff. In a semi you cant really send it first, so it has to be 2nd. And it still takes 2 more cards to pay off. So i'm not sure how good it even is, as you also delay 5v.

It shouldnt be removed, imo its a great card. And it gives spain a lot of extra options without being so strong that it invalidates other styles (though age3 is better for this than age2, I agree). You can now spanish gold 1000f FI. Spanish gold greedy fortress play, on top of fish ff and agro ff which already existed. The only reason people complain about it is because it wasnt thought of by RE.

[zoom]

– "Spanish Gold" shipment decreased from 400c to 300c per shipment; moved to Colonial Age

I don't like this. I think it's fine as-is in Fortress. I'm afraid that this will become a must-use shipment every game after this change.


I'm also not sold on the double Unction buff. It seems too good now.

It's possible. Will tweak, accordingly, or revert. I'm convinced it's worth testing, though.

Double? I see one. Also, it was almost completely unviable, before.

Still, as always, will be keeping an eye on your concerns.

[zoom]

And you would benefit from a math class... 5v gather 250c in about 75 seconds with placer mines, and keep in mind that depletes your coin mine while this shipment wouldn't. Spain's shipments arrive much faster than once per 75 seconds in early fortress. In early fort the shipment would be worth about 8 vills and would slowly decrease in value as you send more shipments but it does save coin mines. On top of that it comes with 250 immediately, which would take the 5v 75 seconds to match.

Two points:
1. Sending it over any resource shipment (whether 700c, 700w, or 1000w) is a compromise; not necessarily better.
2. At 400c, the shipment is practically unviable, currently.

Still, if I see anyone abusing this broken shipment, I would be both delighted and more convinced to tweak it!

[zoom]

Colonial 300g spanish gold is obviously too strong.

Obviously, then, you should use it, and try to prove your point.

Edit: My bad. Will have the issue resolved within days, I expect.

[zoom]

I also find it amusing that some members tend to only state things like "it's obviously too strong" and just hit likes based on who is writing/who is somebody arguing against without giving it the subject any kind actual thought. Really constructive.

Also, I really wonder how many elo pages we have to go through to find a spanish game by kaiser or dia.....

Although you make a decent point, try to stay friendly and constructive yourself in this subforum to make sure the discussion remains healthy. You've made your points regarding Spanish Gold, we will wait now on the others to defend their case.

I think the former is quite a constructive statement, though – unlike the latter.

[zoom]

I already used spanish gold in colo, there are surely benefits in doing that. Instead of 700w 5v 700g you can go 700w spanish gold 5v. You do net some less resources at start (100g+5v start gathering later), but then it's lot of free resources. I imagine you can also use it in place of 700g with the standard FF in not aggressive MUs.
I also don't like having it in colonial. It's even harder to fit it in the colonial rack of shipments.
Also not sure about unction buff, I agree it feels a bit too good now. I simply wouldn't touch it, but you can consider a church wagon instead of 2 missionares. Alternatively 2 missionaries but no cost reduction.

I definitely will be considering reverting or tweaking the former, and tweaking the latter. I do think both changes have merit, though, and would like to test them.

[zoom]

Personally I think the idea behind the Spanish gold shipment needs to be remembered. It's supposed to give Spain options outside of mindlessly clicking cards and shoving them all at the opponent in early fortress and basically playing without a civ bonus and no ranged combat cards (other than Unction) outside of this.

Making it colonial will either make it a must have or inferior to 5 vill with very little wiggle room in the middle. Being in Fortress means the player must make a conscious choice of whether they want to go all in, or whether they want to try and compete long term. You could boost the age 3 version to 500 if the community feels that 400 is just not worthwhile.

As for Unction. The idea of it giving 2 missionaries is so that there is an 'instant' nature to it. All other combat cards work immediately. Unction does not. Also, on paper it sounds amazing, but training and keeping units in range of those missionaries is a pain and can reduce strategic options in exchange for this amazing paper buff.

It's possible. We'll see.

My idea for Unction is to add a Church Wagon, like Garja mentioned. Aizamk's idea seems quite a bit more popular, though, so I decided in favor of testing it.

[zoom]

I just don't understand why it needs to be changed. It's in a good spot right now.

It's not viable enough, at 400c, judging by how rarely it seems to be sent.

[deleted_user0]

And you would benefit from a math class... 5v gather 250c in about 75 seconds with placer mines, and keep in mind that depletes your coin mine while this shipment wouldn't. Spain's shipments arrive much faster than once per 75 seconds in early fortress. In early fort the shipment would be worth about 8 vills and would slowly decrease in value as you send more shipments but it does save coin mines. On top of that it comes with 250 immediately, which would take the 5v 75 seconds to match.

Two points:
1. Sending it over any resource shipment (whether 700c, 700w, or 1000w) is a compromise; not necessarily better.
2. At 400c, the shipment is practically unviable, currently.

Still, if I see anyone abusing this broken shipment, I would be both delighted and more convinced to tweak it!

I disagree that its unviable at 400c. I think its in a good place right now. I've used it frequently, usually with good results, though i wouldnt say its op. As i've also misjudged when i could send it, and it ended up costing me games when I sent it in situations where i was under too much pressure for it to pay off. Or worse, you send it, get pressured, cancel it, send something else, but then that unit shipment comes just a bit to late to be useful.

I can look up the recs, if you think thats useful.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I just don't understand why it needs to be changed. It's in a good spot right now.

It's not viable enough, at 400c, judging by how rarely it seems to be sent.

It's viable sometimes, like when you want to go for a FI.
From what I understand, you want to make it a "must send" shipment or something. That's not how balance should be achieved. We should buff the civ overall instead of creating options out of nowhere.

[zoom]

And you would benefit from a math class... 5v gather 250c in about 75 seconds with placer mines, and keep in mind that depletes your coin mine while this shipment wouldn't. Spain's shipments arrive much faster than once per 75 seconds in early fortress. In early fort the shipment would be worth about 8 vills and would slowly decrease in value as you send more shipments but it does save coin mines. On top of that it comes with 250 immediately, which would take the 5v 75 seconds to match.

Two points:
1. Sending it over any resource shipment (whether 700c, 700w, or 1000w) is a compromise; not necessarily better.
2. At 400c, the shipment is practically unviable, currently.

Still, if I see anyone abusing this broken shipment, I would be both delighted and more convinced to tweak it!

I disagree that its unviable at 400c. I think its in a good place right now. I've used it frequently, usually with good results, though i wouldnt say its op. As i've also misjudged when i could send it, and it ended up costing me games when I sent it in situations where i was under too much pressure for it to pay off. Or worse, you send it, get pressured, cancel it, send something else, but then that unit shipment comes just a bit to late to be useful.

I can look up the recs, if you think thats useful.

I should have been more specific: I very rarely see it sent. Just buffing or leaving it are definitely options, to me, though. I'm simply interested in seeing how the Colonial version plays out, once it's tweaked to the right amount.