Beta Spanish Discussion

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Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by zoom »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
zoom wrote:
Mitoe wrote:I just don't understand why it needs to be changed. It's in a good spot right now.
It's not viable enough, at 400c, judging by how rarely it seems to be sent.

It's viable sometimes, like when you want to go for a FI.
From what I understand, you want to make it a "must send" shipment or something. That's not how balance should be achieved. We should buff the civ overall instead of creating options out of nowhere.
If that's your understanding, I suggest you read the following bites:

"It's possible [that Spanish Gold will become a must-use shipment]. Will tweak, accordingly, or revert. I'm convinced it's worth testing, though."
"Still, if I see anyone abusing this broken shipment, I would be both delighted and more convinced to tweak it!"
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Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

zoom wrote:1. Sending it over any resource shipment (whether 700c, 700w, or 1000w) is a compromise; not necessarily better.
You should instead compare it to villager shipments since it isn't a one time boost. Colonial 300c SG compares very favorably to 5v. It would be worth 8+ placer mines vills for a few minutes when sent around 6 min game time in a no-TP game (more in a TP game), and slowly decrease in value but it probably wouldn't reach 5v in value until somewhere around 12 min, at which point it has easily paid off already. And none of that even includes the immediate 300c.
2. At 400c, the shipment is practically unviable, currently.
Fortress age shipments are supposed to be more valuable than colonial shipments, and on top of that there is much more opportunity cost for Spain if you're sending it in fortress. It fits the build better when sent in early colonial or in transition.
Still, if I see anyone abusing this broken shipment, I would be both delighted and more convinced to tweak it!
That's fair. Maths don't lie though.
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Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

zoom wrote:
umeu wrote:
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I disagree that its unviable at 400c. I think its in a good place right now. I've used it frequently, usually with good results, though i wouldnt say its op. As i've also misjudged when i could send it, and it ended up costing me games when I sent it in situations where i was under too much pressure for it to pay off. Or worse, you send it, get pressured, cancel it, send something else, but then that unit shipment comes just a bit to late to be useful.

I can look up the recs, if you think thats useful.
I should have been more specific: I very rarely see it sent. Just buffing or leaving it are definitely options, to me, though. I'm simply interested in seeing how the Colonial version plays out, once it's tweaked to the right amount.


I understand that you meant that, hence maybe recs will help you see how it works and affects games. Considering that you havent seen it sent, that means you might learn something from it. In general spain just isnt played a lot, but i dont think thats due to spanish gold.

I also dont think that age2 version will be sent that much more often. At 300c it's not good enough to sway people to make the semi ff the main way to play spain in most mu's, and though making the shipment better might have that effect, youd have to consider if its desirable.

At 300c in age2 it will be sent more often in age2, but less in age3
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Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by Hazza54321 »

Please dont give rods +1 att theyd be so broken.
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Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by zoom »

Goodspeed wrote:
zoom wrote:1. Sending it over any resource shipment (whether 700c, 700w, or 1000w) is a compromise; not necessarily better.
You should instead compare it to villager shipments since it isn't a one time boost. Colonial 300c SG compares very favorably to 5v. It would be worth 8+ placer mines vills for a few minutes when sent around 6 min game time in a no-TP game (more in a TP game), and slowly decrease in value but it probably wouldn't reach 5v in value until somewhere around 12 min, at which point it has easily paid off already. And none of that even includes the immediate 300c.
2. At 400c, the shipment is practically unviable, currently.
Fortress age shipments are supposed to be more valuable than colonial shipments, and on top of that there is much more opportunity cost for Spain if you're sending it in fortress. It fits the build better when sent in early colonial or in transition.
Still, if I see anyone abusing this broken shipment, I would be both delighted and more convinced to tweak it!
That's fair. Maths don't lie though.
I think you should compare both, since you're missing out on a lot, in the short term, compared to 700w or c. It also seems unreasonable that it were equal to ten Settlers gathering coin, plus 300c. Still, even if you have but half a point, I agree nerfing it would make sense.

Do you realize that EP6 SG is 15v+400c at 8 minutes, then? Obviously, that isn't reality.
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Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by zoom »

umeu wrote:
zoom wrote:
Show hidden quotes
I should have been more specific: I very rarely see it sent. Just buffing or leaving it are definitely options, to me, though. I'm simply interested in seeing how the Colonial version plays out, once it's tweaked to the right amount.


I understand that you meant that, hence maybe recs will help you see how it works and affects games. Considering that you havent seen it sent, that means you might learn something from it. In general spain just isnt played a lot, but i dont think thats due to spanish gold.

I also dont think that age2 version will be sent that much more often. At 300c it's not good enough to sway people to make the semi ff the main way to play spain in most mu's, and though making the shipment better might have that effect, youd have to consider if its desirable.

At 300c in age2 it will be sent more often in age2, but less in age3
Agreed. Overall, I think it would be good if it were more of an option. Will reconsider it, later on.
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Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by zoom »

zoom wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
zoom wrote:1. Sending it over any resource shipment (whether 700c, 700w, or 1000w) is a compromise; not necessarily better.
You should instead compare it to villager shipments since it isn't a one time boost. Colonial 300c SG compares very favorably to 5v. It would be worth 8+ placer mines vills for a few minutes when sent around 6 min game time in a no-TP game (more in a TP game), and slowly decrease in value but it probably wouldn't reach 5v in value until somewhere around 12 min, at which point it has easily paid off already. And none of that even includes the immediate 300c.
2. At 400c, the shipment is practically unviable, currently.
Fortress age shipments are supposed to be more valuable than colonial shipments, and on top of that there is much more opportunity cost for Spain if you're sending it in fortress. It fits the build better when sent in early colonial or in transition.
Still, if I see anyone abusing this broken shipment, I would be both delighted and more convinced to tweak it!
That's fair. Maths don't lie though.
I think you should compare both, since you're missing out on a lot, in the short term, compared to 700w or c. It also seems unreasonable that it were equal to ten Settlers gathering coin, plus 300c. Still, even if you have but half a point, I agree nerfing it would make sense.

Do you realize that EP6 SG is 15v+400c at 8 minutes, then? Obviously, that isn't reality.
I tried doing some quick maths:

285/0.6=475villsex to gather 285c
475/5=95sec for 5v to gather 285c
I'd use 60 sec as a good estimation of the average of the interval between crates being picked up, since shipments arrive in 40, if you get them constantly, which you wont over several minutes, and you need at least 10s to gather crates – plus you lose gathering time for it.

That suggests it's about 50% better than 5v, plus the 285c that the shipment comes with, which is definitively still too good. I wonder how you arrive at 100% better, though... probably by using 40s instead of 60. I could go so far as to say the answer lies in between
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Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

It's 100% better only if you're getting back to back shipments. I arrived at this the same way you did, except I took 40s as the interval between picking up crates:
I'd use 60 sec as a good estimation of the average of the interval between crates being picked up, since shipments arrive in 40
If you're sending back to back shipments (every 40s) you would also be picking up the crates every 40s. Whether it takes 10 seconds or 20 to pick them up isn't relevant to this interval.

But again it would only be worth that much as long as you get back to back shipments. It would lose value fairly quickly. Still, it wouldn't fall to 5v in value until there is a 1:30 break between shipments which with Spain isn't until past 10 minutes, and when we include the immediate 300c you get it seems easily too strong.
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Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

obviously spain doesn't send back to back shipments... you're overestimating the xp income of spain by a lot.
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Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

Spain commonly sends back to back shipments, especially if they get a (couple of) TP(s). Typically 3 back to back shipments as they hit colonial, and 2 as they hit fortress unless an extra one was sent in transition. Regardless, my initial estimate was for a no TP game and I assumed that there would be, for the first couple of minutes after sending the shipment, on average about a minute between shipments, which (in case of 300c) would make it worth around 8 placer mines vills. Anyway if you do your own math, you'll see that even with very conservative estimates and considering the immediate 300c you get (as well as mine preservation, saved pop space and unraidable eco), the shipment is worth easily more than 5v which was the point of my post.

I would start with 250c, which breaks even with 5v earlier in the game and will therefore not be as much of a must-send.
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Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

you have to consider build order progress though. spain doesn't age with 400w. so they can't start with SG when they do colonial or semi ff builds. SG is a good shipment to replace 700c in the standard FF, however, it does slow you down a little as you'll have to wait for the 2nd shipment to arrive and drop off the 300c, as well as gather an additional 100c. This means that you can't send SG in games where you need to reach age3 as fast as you can, for example vs a jan rush or aztec all in. So I wouldn't worry that much about SG being a must send shipment at 300c.
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Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

I think you could easily start with SG in colonial or semi-FF builds. You simply chop all the wood and with 500f and 300c in crates, you would get 5 huss out, may even get a pretty decent second batch since your second colo shipment will arrive in time for you to gather the 300c from that before the batch completes.
Sounds like a pretty strong build tbh.
This means that you can't send SG in games where you need to reach age3 as fast as you can, for example vs a jan rush or aztec all in. So I wouldn't worry that much about SG being a must send shipment at 300c.
Sure, not every game. It's still an eco shipment, I just don't think giving Spain an eco shipment that is so obviously better than 5v is warranted.
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Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

Damnit I wish I could launch the beta and try some broken colonial spanish gold builds
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Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by sebnan12 »

id love to see spain getting +100 food starting crate, xp boost and ur version of the unction buff. i also dislike spanish gold change but i dont mind it too much. i think with these changes they would be fine
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Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by Garja »

Can we agree that having Spanish Gold in colonial is simply not good for the design of the civ and very likely for balance? I mean it would be one thing less to spend time on arguing/testing.
Also starting conditions are not something to change without very strong reasons to (e.g Iro being OP on RE). Starting vills/crates have been tweaked in past and current values have proven to be a correct base ground for balance.
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Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:Can we agree that having Spanish Gold in colonial is simply not good for the design of the civ and very likely for balance? I mean it would be one thing less to spend time on arguing/testing.
Also starting conditions are not something to change without very strong reasons to (e.g Iro being OP on RE). Starting vills/crates have been tweaked in past and current values have proven to be a correct base ground for balance.

I agree.
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Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by zoom »

flontier wrote:age3 gold card was fine but if its not sent often its normal, we give an eco option to spain with the gold card meanwhile we're buffing their shipement and units, so rip eco option and go on the aggr FF which is make better by the units stats and units shipment buff change more than the eco play is reinforce by the spanish gold.
I think it's simply a question of balancing it, so that both are sufficiently viable.

Regardless, will consider reverting to Fortress Age.
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Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by zoom »

sebnan12 wrote:id love to see spain getting +100 food starting crate, xp boost and ur version of the unction buff. i also dislike spanish gold change but i dont mind it too much. i think with these changes they would be fine
Don't you think that would make the civilization overpowered?
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Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:Can we agree that having Spanish Gold in colonial is simply not good for the design of the civ and very likely for balance? I mean it would be one thing less to spend time on arguing/testing.
Also starting conditions are not something to change without very strong reasons to (e.g Iro being OP on RE). Starting vills/crates have been tweaked in past and current values have proven to be a correct base ground for balance.
How do you figure, now that it's in a more reasonable place, in terms of strength? I only saw you mentioning that you think it's hard to fit in the deck.

Regardless, will consider reverting to Fortress Age.
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Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by Garja »

Not only it's even harder to fit in the deck but it is also harder to fit it in a colonial strategy. And since it's weaker it's just not worth to use it as if it was a fortress shipment.

On top of all of this, and it applies to any change, we should always consider the cost of changes. Players don't like changes. Every time you make a change there is a cost for players. So the benefits of a change must at the very least break even with its cost to start thinking about it. And then the net difference must be large enough to actually promote the change.
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Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by _H2O »

What if Spanish gold was still in fortress but shipped faster than other shipments. Often I get to fort and have two shipments stacked. Could be a way to setup the right environment to make Spanish gold viable.
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Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

I think spanish gold is currently fine in some situations. Most fortress civs can't ever punish spain going spanish gold even followed by 1000w, because spain has 10 musks/rods + 4 huss at 7:15 ish, while most other civs aren't up by then or just have no military. So it feels like you can pretty much always get away with it in fortress wars. The question being, is it desirable, or would you rather be aggressive. That depends on the mu.
Vs colonial stuff, I think you just don't want to go spanish gold usually.
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Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by zoom »

_H2O wrote:What if Spanish gold was still in fortress but shipped faster than other shipments. Often I get to fort and have two shipments stacked. Could be a way to setup the right environment to make Spanish gold viable.
I don't mind. Most players seem to think that the shipment is situationally viable (enough), already, though. Plus, it would be quite the odd one out.

Cutting 5s off of the Fortress Age-time and nerfing several stronger civilizations should be quite good for Spanish, regardless.

P.S. Glad to see you posting!
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Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by Garja »

That's some ugly change eh. Spanish gold is already a big change and, somewhat, it works ok. Also players have digested it, kinda. Let's not mess more with this stuff please. If you are concerned about viability I tell you it's already viable. I have builds for it and they're not very marginal. Just FF and send it first is a good way to make use of the shipment. In the current meta most civs, and Spain specifically, can get away with one or two crate shipments in fortress. Spanish gold is essentially Spain 1k gold.
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Re: Beta Spanish Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

It's much better than 1000g tbh
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