Beta General Discussion

[zoom]

Please discuss anything not relating specifically to any civilization, in this thread – unless it already has its own one. Then, based on discussion, here, new threads are subject to creation. The following are the current general changes:

– Castle cost reduced from 250w, 100c to 250w, 50c (bounties adjusted accordingly); "1 Flatland Castle", "1 Hill Castle" and "2 Mountain Castles" shipments increased to "2 Flatland Castles", "2 Hill Castles" and "3 Mountain Castles" (descriptions and names updated accordingly)
– Plantation cost reduced from 800w to 600w (bounties adjusted accordingly)
– Medicine Man population cost reduced from 1 to 0
– Priest cost reduced from 200c to 150c; bounties adjusted accordingly
– Crossbowman inaccuracy removed
– Grenadier "Heavy Infantry" unit-tag removed
– Halberdier hand attack increased from 25 to 30 (Russian Halberdiers adjusted accordingly)
– Spy hitpoints now increases by 25% in Fortress Age
– Arsonist "Heavy Infantry" unit-tag removed
– Jäger cost increased from 180c to 200c (bounties adjusted accordingly)
– Udasi Chakram “Heavy Infantry” unit-tag removed
– “Cavalry Cuirass” improvement cost reduced from 100w, 300c to 300c
– "Incendiary Grenades" improvement cost reduced from 400w, 300c to 250w, 250c
– "Infantry Breastplate" improvement cost reduced from 200w, 200c to 100w, 100c
– "Socket Bayonet" improvement cost reduced from 400w, 400c to 200w, 200c

The following changes are currently being considered:

– "The Exiled Prince” & Fortress Age "The Messenger" train-points increased from 45 to 50
– “Mass Cavalry” improvement cost increased from 600c to 750c [revert]
– "Intervention" shipment decreased from 9 to 8 Redcoats and from 9 to 8 Stadhouders

[Mitoe]

– Medicine Man population cost reduced from 1 to 0

Can't wait to see EP treaty (lul) games where people spam 300+ medicine men for their starting army. If you're going to reduce pop cost to 0 you kinda need a build limit here, even if it will mostly only be relevant to other games modes and custom games. Who's going to make more than 5-10 medicine men in a SUP game anyway?

– "Intervention" shipment decreased from 9 to 8 Redcoats and from 9 to 8 Stadhouders

Is this really necessary?

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea, good that Intervention nerf is not included.

Most of this changes sound good. I'm just worried about the Halb buff (sounds too big), make it 28 to begin with, and the castle change seems very unnecessary...

[Garja]

Intervention is a bit too good, frankly.
Castle cards will be better than 2 outpost card, which makes no sense. I can tell you I was already thinking of using the card with Japan as it is great to hold rushes while going full greed. 2 castles + upgrade just makes the card very good. Can send that first and then go full greed. If opponent is stubborn and insist with the rush also send CM and just keep making zero units. Go to fortress and you already have the castle up for flaming arrows.
Halbardier attack buff is not well thohught. Attack is already its best stat. If anything increase the meelee resistance to a dignitous 20%.

Arsenal upgrades: just add those buffs to the AA card. No reason imo to make them more viable by default.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea, increasing melee resistance to 20% seems better.

[Mitoe]

Melee resistance makes sense as an alternative.

[Kaiserklein]

Thing is halbs will still suck basically as much as they do now with a better melee resist, or a better attack. The problem is they're too slow so they're not able to connect with anything. They'll still get sniped to death by skirms and goons even if you give them 20% resist or 30 attack, or even both. They'll just be a very scary anti cav, but they're currently good enough vs cav anyway tbh.
So I think their speed needs to be buffed. Even if we have to lower their attack a bit to make up for it

[Garja]

You're right but the unit doesn't necessarily need to be buffed. The moment you make halbs 5 speed they suddendly are too good (basically can play like China does). I think the unit is fine, it's occasionally viable in general and with Dutch, after infantry upgrades you can use it on standard basis since you don't care about losing some of them before they connect.
If anything make them a bit cheaper since they cost more than skirms while being less useful in practice.

[zoom]

– Medicine Man population cost reduced from 1 to 0

Can't wait to see EP treaty (lul) games where people spam 300+ medicine men for their starting army. If you're going to reduce pop cost to 0 you kinda need a build limit here, even if it will mostly only be relevant to other games modes and custom games. Who's going to make more than 5-10 medicine men in a SUP game anyway?

– "Intervention" shipment decreased from 9 to 8 Redcoats and from 9 to 8 Stadhouders

Is this really necessary?

No one is going to make more than 5-10 Medicine Men; the unit's build-limit is 10.

Definitively not!

[zoom]

Intervention is a bit too good, frankly.
Castle cards will be better than 2 outpost card, which makes no sense. I can tell you I was already thinking of using the card with Japan as it is great to hold rushes while going full greed. 2 castles + upgrade just makes the card very good. Can send that first and then go full greed. If opponent is stubborn and insist with the rush also send CM and just keep making zero units. Go to fortress and you already have the castle up for flaming arrows.
Halbardier attack buff is not well thohught. Attack is already its best stat. If anything increase the meelee resistance to a dignitous 20%.

Arsenal upgrades: just add those buffs to the AA card. No reason imo to make them more viable by default.

I agree; ideally, the "2 Outposts" shipment were buffed. Still, I don't think anyone but you holds sufficient powers of foresight, to think a "1 Castle" shipment viable. This is just an obvious change, given the Castle cost buff, and I'd be pleased and surprised if I ever see the shipment sent. Ultimately, it's a non-essential change that should be considered, at one point or another.

I'd rather make the unit more unique, than less unique (for which reason a speed buff is also out of the question, on top of being risky, particularly for the Dutch). On top of which, buffing it against the only thing it were remotely viable (melee units), already, seems stupid. It should receive a general buff. Cost is an option, but would requisite shipment buffs. You might realize then, it's thoroughly thought out, whether you find the thought good, or not. 20% attack on a unit that's completely unviable and barely gets to attack, is highly unlikely to be overpowered, although there is limited risk with the Dutch and Russians.

Actually, there is every reason to make those improvements more viable, by default, since it makes both the Arsenal and the Advanced Arsenal shipment more viable.

[Garja]

1 castle shipment is quite crap, as simple as that. 2 castle shipment+the upgrade is quite too good, as simple as that.
You clearly want to push it and make it viable which is the underlying problem here.

As for halbs speed is indeed out of question it would turn from not much used to a must unit to have. Unit is supposed to be good vs other meelee units and 10% is not dignitous for such unit. Cost could doesn't requisite shipment buffs as shipments are the same of skirms and halbs cost more than skirms. The unit is not completely unviable, that should perhaps be the common ground for the discussion.

For arsenal upgrades you don't want to make those improvements more viable, as they are already. What you want instead is make AA more viable because the card right now doesn't quite provide the same benefit of other "advanced X" cards. Also, for what balance is concerned, AA is usually a card more likely found in the decks of civs like Russia, Ports, Spain and Dutch which might deserve a small buff.

[Kaiserklein]

You're right but the unit doesn't necessarily need to be buffed. The moment you make halbs 5 speed they suddendly are too good (basically can play like China does). I think the unit is fine, it's occasionally viable in general and with Dutch, after infantry upgrades you can use it on standard basis since you don't care about losing some of them before they connect.
If anything make them a bit cheaper since they cost more than skirms while being less useful in practice.

Well I would give them 4.5 speed, not 5 speed. The unit is quite useless atm, yeah after some dutch inf ups they start to be decent because they scale on fortress stats, but that's another story. Other civs have zero upgrades for halbs and just never train them.
Note that I personally don't really mind if some units are sort of useless. But just saying, if we do want to buff them, speed is what we need. 20% melee resist would be elegant too because 10% is kinda a joke, but again I doubt it's anywhere near enough.

[zoom]

At this time, based on collective feedback, I think that a more limited scope, with a greater focus on essential balance changes, is a good idea. Thus, I am currently expecting to make the following changes:

– Dynamic (“random”) starting crates no longer include coin
– "The Exiled Prince" & Fortress Age "The Messenger" train-points increased from 45 to 50
– Native Embassy now available to Chinese, Indians, and Japanese
- "Cavalry Cuirass" improvement cost increased from 300c to 100w, 300c [revert]
- "Infantry Breastplate" improvement cost increased from 100w, 100c to 100w, 200c [partial revert]
– "2 Flatland Castles", "2 Hill Castles" and "3 Mountain Castles" shipments decreased to 1, 1, and 2 Castles, respectively (descriptions and names updated accordingly) [revert]

[Garja]

– Dynamic (“random”) starting crates no longer include coin

Wtf, coin crate is good for the game. Even as Jap it's almost better to have that than 300w vs French or Brits, since they respectively won't have TP or super smooth 4.10 age up, while for Jap it means you going no Port consulate (likely going market) which is just a good option anyway vs those civs. Same as India vs Ger it removes the TP and also it makes so that on no TP maps India isn't super favoured. Plus ofc all the ohter arguments on variety, etc. But really even from balance POV this is just one bullshit change, conceived with the ass.

– "The Exiled Prince" & Fortress Age "The Messenger" train-points increased from 45 to 50

I don't see the need to exasperate this. Surely this is something we can test, but introduce straight up idk. Who provided feedback on this? Is there anyway who actually tested it and came with sound conclusion?