Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
Please discuss anything relating specifically to Trade Routes and Trading Posts, here.
Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
What about simply nerfing the Discovery Age Travois' deliveries by 20-25% (it would return to its normal level once a given player reaches Colonial Age)? I think this would achieve a lot of the balance that fixing crates would, with less risk, and a less noticeably intrusive departure from RE. Chinese being an exception, and Dutch coin starts would remain significant issues, though.
Ideally, at least theoretically, I would probably do the above, fix all civilization's crates to wood (giving chinese the random food crate, when others get it), then balance around that. Still, you could do one or the other, too. I wouldn't necessarily do it for EP7, though. I think that would warrant its own patch
Ideally, at least theoretically, I would probably do the above, fix all civilization's crates to wood (giving chinese the random food crate, when others get it), then balance around that. Still, you could do one or the other, too. I wouldn't necessarily do it for EP7, though. I think that would warrant its own patch
Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
Ideally, at least theoretically, I would probably do the above, fix all civilization's crates to wood (giving chinese the random food crate, when others get it), then balance around that.
best idea ever.
mad cuz bad
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
zoom wrote:nerfing the Discovery Age Travois' deliveries by 20-25%
nerf it only for civs that currently aren't able to start with a tp on every start, but only on a wood start or high crate/tres maps (aka, nerf for ger, sioux, ports, fre, russia, india, japan, aztec, dutch and brits. Whether it should be nerfed for iro is debatable, as it used to be a core feature of their style, and whether it should be nerfed for spain is also debatable as XP is a civ bonus and the age1 tp is a core feature of their style.) Don't nerf for china and otto.
In that case, fixing all civs on the wood start is totally fine.
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
Just too many changes. Surely this one will be stale too.
Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
I would not touch TPs. Quote from an earlier thread:
The difference between Germans on a 200w start vs Germans on a 100w start, considering their opponent also gets the extra wood, is vastly overstated imo. Why is that suddenly such a problem when it wasn't in the past 5 years, during all of which Germans have been using TPs? And why is this a game breaking issue and not China's crate start? It's just bandwagon nonsense. And if it's really that bad you could actually fix the problem for every civ and get rid of random crates.
If TP civs are too strong, you should nerf the civs.Currently, civs are already balanced around TPs. Nerfing them would require a lot of tweaks to current TP civs. It is, essentially, changing your mind on a past EP policy which is the basis of many decisions made along the way.
You say TPs are causing balance issues, I only see an issue in China match ups and that's because they don't get the same crate start as other civs. And the only reason vills or the market aren't causing balance issues is because the civs are balanced around them. For example, vills don't help Japan as much but Japan has compensation. And if Japan is weak, you would never consider nerfing vills to buff them. The same could be, and is, true for TPs right now.
TPs make this game great. They emphasize the shipment mechanic which increases strategic depth, and they encourage interaction between players in an RTS that is otherwise not very interactive.
The difference between Germans on a 200w start vs Germans on a 100w start, considering their opponent also gets the extra wood, is vastly overstated imo. Why is that suddenly such a problem when it wasn't in the past 5 years, during all of which Germans have been using TPs? And why is this a game breaking issue and not China's crate start? It's just bandwagon nonsense. And if it's really that bad you could actually fix the problem for every civ and get rid of random crates.
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
it's been an issue for years... lol. it was only overshadowed by otto and iro in the beginning. the fact that it has taken 5 years to even consider this nerf shows the strength of the German lobby. fkin merkelklein...
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
Yeah pretty sure german has been complained about since 2015
Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
The civ in general, yes, which if you want to talk about nerfing them you should do it in the German discussion thread. What wasn't complained about in 2015 (rather from 2010-2018) is specifically the difference between a 200w start and 100w start. (Almost) all civs are much better with the extra wood crate. I know Germans are "more better" than other civs, but my point is it's way overstated; the difference is not as big as people seem to think. The fact that people talk about this as if it breaks the game and not about China's crate situation clearly shows the bias.
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
zoom wrote:What about simply nerfing the Discovery Age Travois' deliveries by 20-25% (it would return to its normal level once a given player reaches Colonial Age)? I think this would achieve a lot of the balance that fixing crates would, with less risk, and a less noticeably intrusive departure from RE. Chinese being an exception, and Dutch coin starts would remain significant issues, though.
Ideally, at least theoretically, I would probably do the above, fix all civilization's crates to wood (giving chinese the random food crate, when others get it), then balance around that. Still, you could do one or the other, too. I wouldn't necessarily do it for EP7, though. I think that would warrant its own patch
I think we don't need it, as soon as you implement fixed crates for each civ, no point in touching Trading posts, but if you have intention to not implement it, then this one would be an alternate way.
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
Goodspeed wrote:I would not touch TPs. Quote from an earlier thread:If TP civs are too strong, you should nerf the civs.Currently, civs are already balanced around TPs. Nerfing them would require a lot of tweaks to current TP civs. It is, essentially, changing your mind on a past EP policy which is the basis of many decisions made along the way.
You say TPs are causing balance issues, I only see an issue in China match ups and that's because they don't get the same crate start as other civs. And the only reason vills or the market aren't causing balance issues is because the civs are balanced around them. For example, vills don't help Japan as much but Japan has compensation. And if Japan is weak, you would never consider nerfing vills to buff them. The same could be, and is, true for TPs right now.
TPs make this game great. They emphasize the shipment mechanic which increases strategic depth, and they encourage interaction between players in an RTS that is otherwise not very interactive.
The difference between Germans on a 200w start vs Germans on a 100w start, considering their opponent also gets the extra wood, is vastly overstated imo. Why is that suddenly such a problem when it wasn't in the past 5 years, during all of which Germans have been using TPs? And why is this a game breaking issue and not China's crate start? It's just bandwagon nonsense. And if it's really that bad you could actually fix the problem for every civ and get rid of random crates.
I agree, I wouldn't touch the TPs.
The difference between a German 200w start and a 100w start is just huge. Same with Dutch.
As Umeu said, it wasn't an issue on the RE because the meta was different, and the maps/balance had greater impacts. Also nobody played Germany.
Fixed Crates is the only good solution imo.
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
Goodspeed wrote:The civ in general, yes, which if you want to talk about nerfing them you should do it in the German discussion thread. What wasn't complained about in 2015 (rather from 2010-2018) is specifically the difference between a 200w start and 100w start. (Almost) all civs are much better with the extra wood crate. I know Germans are "more better" than other civs, but my point is it's way overstated; the difference is not as big as people seem to think. The fact that people talk about this as if it breaks the game and not about China's crate situation clearly shows the bias.
The first time I complained about random crates was in Winter 2016.
I practiced azzy vs Germany for that tournament with nagayumi. We played a bit more than 10 games, I won all the games involving 100w start, and lost the 4 games where he got 200w start because I couldn't punish him.
I don't have the recorded games so you don't have to believe me, but winning 7 or 8 games on a 100w start and then losing 4 on a 200w shows that a game can be decided on random crates.
I got to play that MU in the semi-finals, and I still believe that I would have won that game on a 100w start.
Likewise, in the mono civ cup, I got absolutely stomped on a 200w start in the Hudson Bay game, while I managed to win in a very close 15min game on mendocino.
Some people will probably say that kaiser didn't play well in the mendocino game or that I didn't play well on Hudson bay but imo the wood start was the real difference.
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
Nah on mendocino I'd have won if I just microed. Anyway obviously 200w is very good for ger in that match up.
Not sure why we're discussing crates in the TP thread anyway. Reducing the TP income in age 1 sounds like a good change. Keep it the same for otto if you want, though I don't think its needed.
Not sure why we're discussing crates in the TP thread anyway. Reducing the TP income in age 1 sounds like a good change. Keep it the same for otto if you want, though I don't think its needed.
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
Kaiserklein wrote:Nah on mendocino I'd have won if I just microed. Anyway obviously 200w is very good for ger in that match up.
Not sure why we're discussing crates in the TP thread anyway. Reducing the TP income in age 1 sounds like a good change. Keep it the same for otto if you want, though I don't think its needed.
You could just change the mosque if you wanted a ‘cleaner’ fix to Ottoman.
Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
250 wood TP? That should stop ger getting tp in first minute.
Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
250w TP would also reduce the options of almost every civ, sadly. I like TPs cost as is, but I can stomach another small nerf for the sake of overall balance.
I'm not sure what the best change would be, however. I guess reducing the xp income in age 1 is reasonable. Probably won't delay your first shipment by much, and won't snowball as hard in early-mid Colonial. The numbers might be too large, though, which could result in some civs that only sometimes use TPs to open up new options (Brit TP 3v + VC, or Japan, etc.) not really being able to go for TPs anymore.
I'm not sure what the best change would be, however. I guess reducing the xp income in age 1 is reasonable. Probably won't delay your first shipment by much, and won't snowball as hard in early-mid Colonial. The numbers might be too large, though, which could result in some civs that only sometimes use TPs to open up new options (Brit TP 3v + VC, or Japan, etc.) not really being able to go for TPs anymore.
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
I remember proposing like 4 years ago to give germans a special TP, call it a rugged tp to go along with the rugged houses and just make it cost 250wd, maybe give it some extra hp for style.
All other civs can still do TP stuff at normal cost, ger can still be ok on non-tp without getting hit by other nerfs and they got a unique thingy.
Wasn't very popular idea though.
I mean we change the cost of vils for ports and ruski, houses for india and brit etc, why not tps for ger?
All other civs can still do TP stuff at normal cost, ger can still be ok on non-tp without getting hit by other nerfs and they got a unique thingy.
Wasn't very popular idea though.
I mean we change the cost of vils for ports and ruski, houses for india and brit etc, why not tps for ger?
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
At this point I'm willing to try out a German-specific TP nerf since all of the alternatives seem poor.
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
Yep 250w TP for ger would solve the issue.
I wouldn't give them more HP however.
I think that making a 250w church that gives 0.7 exp/sec would be interesting for no TP maps btw.
I wouldn't give them more HP however.
I think that making a 250w church that gives 0.7 exp/sec would be interesting for no TP maps btw.
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Yep 250w TP for ger would solve the issue.
I wouldn't give them more HP however.
I think that making a 250w church that gives 0.7 exp/sec would be interesting for no TP maps btw.
The problem like many of these proposals is that this also works on TP maps and it can be placed anywhere. The only thing I could think of and you're gunna hate this, but give native TPs this bonus or a lesser one. If we are nerfing TP cost that hits natives after all even though most people here probably don't care about that. While it's true that native TPs sometimes do coexist with trade route TPs like churchs do, the bonus (whatever people decide) would be lesser, it can't be upgraded via stagecoach and it can't be placed anywhere so people would still use normal trade routes under those circumstances, they just wouldn't be totally screwed on non trade route. I dunno.
Incidentally I've never liked 200w TPs despite trying constantly to use minor natives because of all the consequences of the change. I can't help but feel that using the native TPs on non Trade route maps could be used in some way to ease the pain for civs that want to get that trade post, whether it's passive bonuses or otherwise. For all its flaws, the AS fan patch never did 200w TPs. Wacko came in and wanted it, and we voted against him then weirdly enough it turns up in the RE patch a bit later when they decide they aren't dead after all (at least for 20 seconds). Funny that.
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
I don't get the issue with the church. You can only build one, and it's 50w more expensive than a TP, and only worth 70% of a TP so you don't really want to build it unless it's a no TP map.
Nice attempt to buff the natives by the way haha.
Nice attempt to buff the natives by the way haha.
Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
in my view, tp generating less xp in discovery age is, at the very least, flavorful design. it makes sense for the trade line to grow in value as it becomes more established through time
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
[Armag] diarouga wrote:I don't get the issue with the church. You can only build one, and it's 50w more expensive than a TP, and only worth 70% of a TP so you don't really want to build it unless it's a no TP map.
Nice attempt to buff the natives by the way haha.
Well yeah. I've got all sorts of ideas for them of varying severity and that one I've had for years as a way of helping both natives and at least helping a little on no TP maps. They do need it and they do exist on all no trade route maps . Besides, less dramatic boosts would be needed then for the units/techs themselves (if any at all in the better cases e.g Cree, Apache, Inca) and this 'boost' does come with the small nerf of having to pay 50w more . I'm very much of the 'try a slight change out, if it doesn't work go back' mindset.
I also misunderstood the numbers, I thought it was closer to 90%. Still I don't think that'd solve the problem anyway. The civs in question would still be significantly weaker on non TP maps.
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
They'd be weaker but more playable.
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion
Not a huge fan of the church xp, native tp xp and other ideias to create alternative xp on no tp maps.
Imo, just like only a few civs are viable at water maps, only a few are good on 5tp maps, it is ok to have only a few civs favored at no tp maps. What I do think is that we have to increase the amount of viable civs on each kind of map.
All this discussion sounds like "I want to play german on all maps."
But what are we doing in favor of Sioux in indonesia? Dutch in Klondike? Those are even bigger issues than German on thar desert.
Just adjust map pool to have less no tp maps if less civs are viable there.
Imo, just like only a few civs are viable at water maps, only a few are good on 5tp maps, it is ok to have only a few civs favored at no tp maps. What I do think is that we have to increase the amount of viable civs on each kind of map.
All this discussion sounds like "I want to play german on all maps."
But what are we doing in favor of Sioux in indonesia? Dutch in Klondike? Those are even bigger issues than German on thar desert.
Just adjust map pool to have less no tp maps if less civs are viable there.
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