Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by zoom »

Please discuss anything relating specifically to Trade Routes and Trading Posts, here.
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by zoom »

What about simply nerfing the Discovery Age Travois' deliveries by 20-25% (it would return to its normal level once a given player reaches Colonial Age)? I think this would achieve a lot of the balance that fixing crates would, with less risk, and a less noticeably intrusive departure from RE. Chinese being an exception, and Dutch coin starts would remain significant issues, though.

Ideally, at least theoretically, I would probably do the above, fix all civilization's crates to wood (giving chinese the random food crate, when others get it), then balance around that. Still, you could do one or the other, too. I wouldn't necessarily do it for EP7, though. I think that would warrant its own patch
User avatar
United States of America n0el
ESOC Business Team
Posts: 7068
Joined: Jul 24, 2015
ESO: jezabob
Clan: ķŒ€ ķ•˜ģš°ģŠ¤

Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by n0el »

Ideally, at least theoretically, I would probably do the above, fix all civilization's crates to wood (giving chinese the random food crate, when others get it), then balance around that.


best idea ever.
mad cuz bad
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

zoom wrote:nerfing the Discovery Age Travois' deliveries by 20-25%


nerf it only for civs that currently aren't able to start with a tp on every start, but only on a wood start or high crate/tres maps (aka, nerf for ger, sioux, ports, fre, russia, india, japan, aztec, dutch and brits. Whether it should be nerfed for iro is debatable, as it used to be a core feature of their style, and whether it should be nerfed for spain is also debatable as XP is a civ bonus and the age1 tp is a core feature of their style.) Don't nerf for china and otto.

In that case, fixing all civs on the wood start is totally fine.
Australia Hazza54321
Pro Player
Winter Champion 2020 x2Donator 01
Posts: 8049
Joined: May 4, 2015
ESO: PrinceofBabu

Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by Hazza54321 »

Just too many changes. Surely this one will be stale too.
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

I would not touch TPs. Quote from an earlier thread:
Currently, civs are already balanced around TPs. Nerfing them would require a lot of tweaks to current TP civs. It is, essentially, changing your mind on a past EP policy which is the basis of many decisions made along the way.

You say TPs are causing balance issues, I only see an issue in China match ups and that's because they don't get the same crate start as other civs. And the only reason vills or the market aren't causing balance issues is because the civs are balanced around them. For example, vills don't help Japan as much but Japan has compensation. And if Japan is weak, you would never consider nerfing vills to buff them. The same could be, and is, true for TPs right now.

TPs make this game great. They emphasize the shipment mechanic which increases strategic depth, and they encourage interaction between players in an RTS that is otherwise not very interactive.
If TP civs are too strong, you should nerf the civs.

The difference between Germans on a 200w start vs Germans on a 100w start, considering their opponent also gets the extra wood, is vastly overstated imo. Why is that suddenly such a problem when it wasn't in the past 5 years, during all of which Germans have been using TPs? And why is this a game breaking issue and not China's crate start? It's just bandwagon nonsense. And if it's really that bad you could actually fix the problem for every civ and get rid of random crates.
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

  • Quote

Post by deleted_user0 »

it's been an issue for years... lol. it was only overshadowed by otto and iro in the beginning. the fact that it has taken 5 years to even consider this nerf shows the strength of the German lobby. fkin merkelklein...
Australia Hazza54321
Pro Player
Winter Champion 2020 x2Donator 01
Posts: 8049
Joined: May 4, 2015
ESO: PrinceofBabu

Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by Hazza54321 »

Yeah pretty sure german has been complained about since 2015
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

The civ in general, yes, which if you want to talk about nerfing them you should do it in the German discussion thread. What wasn't complained about in 2015 (rather from 2010-2018) is specifically the difference between a 200w start and 100w start. (Almost) all civs are much better with the extra wood crate. I know Germans are "more better" than other civs, but my point is it's way overstated; the difference is not as big as people seem to think. The fact that people talk about this as if it breaks the game and not about China's crate situation clearly shows the bias.
No Flag deleted_user
Ninja
Posts: 14364
Joined: Mar 26, 2015

Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by deleted_user »

zoom wrote:What about simply nerfing the Discovery Age Travois' deliveries by 20-25% (it would return to its normal level once a given player reaches Colonial Age)? I think this would achieve a lot of the balance that fixing crates would, with less risk, and a less noticeably intrusive departure from RE. Chinese being an exception, and Dutch coin starts would remain significant issues, though.

Ideally, at least theoretically, I would probably do the above, fix all civilization's crates to wood (giving chinese the random food crate, when others get it), then balance around that. Still, you could do one or the other, too. I wouldn't necessarily do it for EP7, though. I think that would warrant its own patch

I think we don't need it, as soon as you implement fixed crates for each civ, no point in touching Trading posts, but if you have intention to not implement it, then this one would be an alternate way.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Goodspeed wrote:I would not touch TPs. Quote from an earlier thread:
Currently, civs are already balanced around TPs. Nerfing them would require a lot of tweaks to current TP civs. It is, essentially, changing your mind on a past EP policy which is the basis of many decisions made along the way.

You say TPs are causing balance issues, I only see an issue in China match ups and that's because they don't get the same crate start as other civs. And the only reason vills or the market aren't causing balance issues is because the civs are balanced around them. For example, vills don't help Japan as much but Japan has compensation. And if Japan is weak, you would never consider nerfing vills to buff them. The same could be, and is, true for TPs right now.

TPs make this game great. They emphasize the shipment mechanic which increases strategic depth, and they encourage interaction between players in an RTS that is otherwise not very interactive.
If TP civs are too strong, you should nerf the civs.

The difference between Germans on a 200w start vs Germans on a 100w start, considering their opponent also gets the extra wood, is vastly overstated imo. Why is that suddenly such a problem when it wasn't in the past 5 years, during all of which Germans have been using TPs? And why is this a game breaking issue and not China's crate start? It's just bandwagon nonsense. And if it's really that bad you could actually fix the problem for every civ and get rid of random crates.

I agree, I wouldn't touch the TPs.
The difference between a German 200w start and a 100w start is just huge. Same with Dutch.
As Umeu said, it wasn't an issue on the RE because the meta was different, and the maps/balance had greater impacts. Also nobody played Germany.

Fixed Crates is the only good solution imo.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Goodspeed wrote:The civ in general, yes, which if you want to talk about nerfing them you should do it in the German discussion thread. What wasn't complained about in 2015 (rather from 2010-2018) is specifically the difference between a 200w start and 100w start. (Almost) all civs are much better with the extra wood crate. I know Germans are "more better" than other civs, but my point is it's way overstated; the difference is not as big as people seem to think. The fact that people talk about this as if it breaks the game and not about China's crate situation clearly shows the bias.

The first time I complained about random crates was in Winter 2016.
I practiced azzy vs Germany for that tournament with nagayumi. We played a bit more than 10 games, I won all the games involving 100w start, and lost the 4 games where he got 200w start because I couldn't punish him.
I don't have the recorded games so you don't have to believe me, but winning 7 or 8 games on a 100w start and then losing 4 on a 200w shows that a game can be decided on random crates.
I got to play that MU in the semi-finals, and I still believe that I would have won that game on a 100w start.

Likewise, in the mono civ cup, I got absolutely stomped on a 200w start in the Hudson Bay game, while I managed to win in a very close 15min game on mendocino.
Some people will probably say that kaiser didn't play well in the mendocino game or that I didn't play well on Hudson bay but imo the wood start was the real difference.
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

Nah on mendocino I'd have won if I just microed. Anyway obviously 200w is very good for ger in that match up.

Not sure why we're discussing crates in the TP thread anyway. Reducing the TP income in age 1 sounds like a good change. Keep it the same for otto if you want, though I don't think its needed.
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Australia Peachrocks
Lancer
Posts: 506
Joined: Jul 11, 2019
ESO: Peachrocks

Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by Peachrocks »

Kaiserklein wrote:Nah on mendocino I'd have won if I just microed. Anyway obviously 200w is very good for ger in that match up.

Not sure why we're discussing crates in the TP thread anyway. Reducing the TP income in age 1 sounds like a good change. Keep it the same for otto if you want, though I don't think its needed.


You could just change the mosque if you wanted a ā€˜cleanerā€™ fix to Ottoman.
User avatar
United States of America SoldieR
Pro Player
Posts: 2270
Joined: Feb 22, 2015
ESO: SoldieR
Location: Chi City

Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by SoldieR »

250 wood TP? That should stop ger getting tp in first minute.
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by Mitoe »

250w TP would also reduce the options of almost every civ, sadly. I like TPs cost as is, but I can stomach another small nerf for the sake of overall balance.

I'm not sure what the best change would be, however. I guess reducing the xp income in age 1 is reasonable. Probably won't delay your first shipment by much, and won't snowball as hard in early-mid Colonial. The numbers might be too large, though, which could result in some civs that only sometimes use TPs to open up new options (Brit TP 3v + VC, or Japan, etc.) not really being able to go for TPs anymore.
Great Britain WickedCossack
Retired Contributor
Posts: 1904
Joined: Feb 11, 2015

Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by WickedCossack »

I remember proposing like 4 years ago to give germans a special TP, call it a rugged tp to go along with the rugged houses and just make it cost 250wd, maybe give it some extra hp for style.

All other civs can still do TP stuff at normal cost, ger can still be ok on non-tp without getting hit by other nerfs and they got a unique thingy.

Wasn't very popular idea though. :P

I mean we change the cost of vils for ports and ruski, houses for india and brit etc, why not tps for ger?
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by Mitoe »

At this point I'm willing to try out a German-specific TP nerf since all of the alternatives seem poor.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Yep 250w TP for ger would solve the issue.
I wouldn't give them more HP however.

I think that making a 250w church that gives 0.7 exp/sec would be interesting for no TP maps btw.
Australia Peachrocks
Lancer
Posts: 506
Joined: Jul 11, 2019
ESO: Peachrocks

Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by Peachrocks »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Yep 250w TP for ger would solve the issue.
I wouldn't give them more HP however.

I think that making a 250w church that gives 0.7 exp/sec would be interesting for no TP maps btw.


The problem like many of these proposals is that this also works on TP maps and it can be placed anywhere. The only thing I could think of and you're gunna hate this, but give native TPs this bonus or a lesser one. If we are nerfing TP cost that hits natives after all even though most people here probably don't care about that. While it's true that native TPs sometimes do coexist with trade route TPs like churchs do, the bonus (whatever people decide) would be lesser, it can't be upgraded via stagecoach and it can't be placed anywhere so people would still use normal trade routes under those circumstances, they just wouldn't be totally screwed on non trade route. I dunno.

Incidentally I've never liked 200w TPs despite trying constantly to use minor natives because of all the consequences of the change. I can't help but feel that using the native TPs on non Trade route maps could be used in some way to ease the pain for civs that want to get that trade post, whether it's passive bonuses or otherwise. For all its flaws, the AS fan patch never did 200w TPs. Wacko came in and wanted it, and we voted against him then weirdly enough it turns up in the RE patch a bit later when they decide they aren't dead after all (at least for 20 seconds). Funny that.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I don't get the issue with the church. You can only build one, and it's 50w more expensive than a TP, and only worth 70% of a TP so you don't really want to build it unless it's a no TP map.

Nice attempt to buff the natives by the way haha.
User avatar
United States of America Cometk
Retired Contributor
Posts: 7257
Joined: Feb 15, 2015
Location: California

Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by Cometk »

in my view, tp generating less xp in discovery age is, at the very least, flavorful design. it makes sense for the trade line to grow in value as it becomes more established through time
Image
Australia Peachrocks
Lancer
Posts: 506
Joined: Jul 11, 2019
ESO: Peachrocks

Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by Peachrocks »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:I don't get the issue with the church. You can only build one, and it's 50w more expensive than a TP, and only worth 70% of a TP so you don't really want to build it unless it's a no TP map.

Nice attempt to buff the natives by the way haha.


Well yeah. I've got all sorts of ideas for them of varying severity and that one I've had for years as a way of helping both natives and at least helping a little on no TP maps. They do need it and they do exist on all no trade route maps ;). Besides, less dramatic boosts would be needed then for the units/techs themselves (if any at all in the better cases e.g Cree, Apache, Inca) and this 'boost' does come with the small nerf of having to pay 50w more ;). I'm very much of the 'try a slight change out, if it doesn't work go back' mindset.

I also misunderstood the numbers, I thought it was closer to 90%. Still I don't think that'd solve the problem anyway. The civs in question would still be significantly weaker on non TP maps.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

They'd be weaker but more playable.
User avatar
Brazil lemmings121
Jaeger
Posts: 2673
Joined: Mar 15, 2015
ESO: lemmings121

Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by lemmings121 »

Not a huge fan of the church xp, native tp xp and other ideias to create alternative xp on no tp maps.

Imo, just like only a few civs are viable at water maps, only a few are good on 5tp maps, it is ok to have only a few civs favored at no tp maps. What I do think is that we have to increase the amount of viable civs on each kind of map.

All this discussion sounds like "I want to play german on all maps."
But what are we doing in favor of Sioux in indonesia? Dutch in Klondike? Those are even bigger issues than German on thar desert.

Just adjust map pool to have less no tp maps if less civs are viable there.
Image

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV