Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

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New Zealand zoom
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by zoom »

Goodspeed wrote:Wait so what is actually wrong with @Peachrocks' native TP XP trickle idea? That sounds great to me.
I agree. I already suggested having naive alliances grant an amount of experience, when entered.
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:I agree, just don't push it even further toward experience and cards.
It might make sense, on a 0TP map.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

zoom wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:I'm confused, I argued we shouldn't touch TPs and you're saying my point would carry more weight if I suggested to remove them or significantly nerf them? :hmm:
No. I am saying it would, if that what the suggestion you were arguing against.
Oh, sure. Regardless I think any problem that is solved by nerfing TPs can be solved in other, better ways. Specifically the discovery TP nerf is just a really ugly band-aid. XP is more valuable in the early game by design and if that is too beneficial to some civs, change the civs so that they are less dependent on it or so that going for the early TP is more costly to them. Fixed crates or replacing exiled prince for Germany are both good examples of much better, cleaner ways to dealing with the issue.
Why make a change that affects all civs when this isn't an issue for 90% of them?
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

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Post by deleted_user0 »

make german tps 300w!
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United States of America SoldieR
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by SoldieR »

zoom wrote:
IAmSoldieR wrote:250 wood TP? That should stop ger getting tp in first minute.
Good luck getting that through Goodspeed. I'm unsure whether to do anything about TPs, personally, though.

No offense to him, but he doesn't even play the game. You're in charge of this.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

There it is!
At least with zoi in charge I can be sure no changes will be made only because "we know because we play the game".

Conscripts play the game, too.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Watching streams and playing the game are different experiences honestly.
Like for example you can't understand how hard it is to beat Russia when you're not the one holding the rush. I agree that this is irrelevant when the discussion is about changing TPs though.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

Yeah my bad, I've never played against a Russian rush.
More relevantly, players who played the game when TPs actually did cost 250w are probably in the minority now
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Goodspeed wrote:Yeah my bad, I've never played against a Russian rush.
A more relevant question: How many of you were playing the game competitively when TPs actually did cost 250w?

You've never played against a good Russian rush with the rusket buff. Playing against random RE scrubs and good players rushing as Russia is very different.

As I said, not playing the game doesn't matter when the discussion is about TPs.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

The rush was actually scarier in an earlier EP version, when we decreased vill batch cost by 15f.
But to reply to your actual point: It's fairly easy to imagine playing against a build you've played against a 100 times with a small change like Russia having half an extra musk, or to imagine the effect of other, relatively small changes. An example of something we can't predict, no matter how much we play the game, is what will happen to China after EP7 or the effect of 250w TPs, although in the latter case I'm sure it helps to have played the game back when TPs did cost 250w.

But we digress.
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

When we decreased vill batch cost by 15f Russia was broken, that's why it got reverted. Likewise, the rusket buff should be reverted.
I agree that the TP cost shouldn't be changed (unless it's just for Germany).
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by Hazza54321 »

You played when the meta was different and vs worse players. These “15f so little and irrelevant “ changes matter alot. I used to main russia for 2 years and still play them alot today and theres clearly a difference in the mass you can get.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

What about my post makes you think I am of the opinion that the vill batch change was irrelevant?
Goodspeed wrote:The rush was actually scarier in an earlier EP version, when we decreased vill batch cost by 15f.
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

Goodspeed wrote:The rush was actually scarier in an earlier EP version, when we decreased vill batch cost by 15f.
But to reply to your actual point: It's fairly easy to imagine playing against a build you've played against a 100 times with a small change like Russia having half an extra musk, or to imagine the effect of other, relatively small changes. An example of something we can't predict, no matter how much we play the game, is what will happen to China after EP7 or the effect of 250w TPs, although in the latter case I'm sure it helps to have played the game back when TPs did cost 250w.

But we digress.


You cant change cost of buildings selectively? Like german tps are more expensive while other tps remain same price?
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

Probably could but yuck
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

lol why yuck? zoom just changed iro foundry, what's the problem? you want less standardization, right?
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

It messes with an otherwise consistent game design and it just doesn't make sense. It's the exact same building. And why is it so terrible for German TPs to be better than other civs'? The difference is overstated and there are plenty of other ways to nerf the civ, including ways that make them less dependent on TPs like replacing exiled prince.
I'm not a fan of the foundry change either but that building is rarely built anyway so I don't care enough to start a discussion about it. There is already so much to talk about
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

:huh: because when germans were designed, aka on nilla, tps were 250w, and they couldn't get an age1 tp. the age1 tp kinda negates their shipment deficit and the stronger shipments just snowball so hard. it's not really overstated, germans is just super strong. nerfing their xp deficit could work, but it also affects no tp maps, on which germans are not unbalanced, but actually in a good position.

in any case, the foundry for iros is also the same building pretty much as for euro civs. just the name is different but that's really not that relevant. I honestly don't really see what the argument of "consistency" is supposed to mean. Like what consistency do we have in the units? uhlan, nagi, cossack, kanya 30% RR. Huss & cuir 20%. Spahi 10% crossbows 20% but aenna and cetan 30% i mean... Then EP changed goons to 20% but left musket rider on 30%. Ruyter are 10% while zambs are 30% even tho zambs are a better unit, and about the same price. if different units for different civs can have different costs and state divides, then I don't see why this cant be the case for buildings. Germans 250w tp argument is feasible, and there's both basis for it in balance, and arguably in history as well (germans being the least and latest colonial of the euro civs).
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

Can we stop with the "germans are fine on no tp maps" myth? That's just bs, the civ sucks ass on no tp. You're stuck in colo with shit units in most match ups, and in the match ups where you can age you just struggle to get shipments.
However, with the current dop buff, an uhlan hp revert, and the incoming xbow buff, ger would be in a sort of decent spot on no TP I guess. Just need a smart nerf on the other hand, that weakens them on TP maps only. Typically, if we have the -1v from 3 sw and the trained uhlans nerf, ger is just gonna be even worse on no TP, but not really on TP maps, so I hope we won't have that.

Also for the record you can totally TP on 200w 300f start with 250w TPs. I've done it on nilla recently, people just didn't do it cause bots. It's both an ugly nerf and not enough to balance the civ.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

umeu wrote::huh: because when germans were designed, aka on nilla, tps were 250w, and they couldn't get an age1 tp. the age1 tp kinda negates their shipment deficit and the stronger shipments just snowball so hard. it's not really overstated, germans is just super strong. nerfing their xp deficit could work, but it also affects no tp maps, on which germans are not unbalanced, but actually in a good position.
I'm saying the difference between how well Germans scale on TPs, specifically the early TP, and how well other (TP) civs do is overstated. I have no opinion on how strong Germans are, but I believe you.
in any case, the foundry for iros is also the same building pretty much as for euro civs. just the name is different but that's really not that relevant.
Did you miss the part where I said I'm also not a fan of that change? To be fair if the name is different, which I didn't know it was, that makes it a little less bad. What makes messing with stuff like this bad is that people reasonably expect a building that is named the same, looks the same and has the same stats to have the same cost.
I honestly don't really see what the argument of "consistency" is supposed to mean. Like what consistency do we have in the units? uhlan, nagi, cossack, kanya 30% RR. Huss & cuir 20%. Spahi 10% crossbows 20% but aenna and cetan 30% i mean... Then EP changed goons to 20% but left musket rider on 30%. Ruyter are 10% while zambs are 30% even tho zambs are a better unit, and about the same price. if different units for different civs can have different costs and state divides, then I don't see why this cant be the case for buildings. Germans 250w tp argument is feasible, and there's both basis for it in balance, and arguably in history as well (germans being the least and latest colonial of the euro civs).
We have consistency in units that are named the same and look the same. A ruyter is not the same unit as a goon. Their stats, cost, name and look differs. Units that are shared between civs, like crossbowmen, hussars, musketeers or even settlers for that matter are all identical with the exception of Russian units but that's their civ bonus.

That historical basis is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

Kaiserklein wrote:Can we stop with the "germans are fine on no tp maps" myth? That's just bs, the civ sucks ass on no tp. You're stuck in colo with shit units in most match ups, and in the match ups where you can age you just struggle to get shipments.
However, with the current dop buff, an uhlan hp revert, and the incoming xbow buff, ger would be in a sort of decent spot on no TP I guess. Just need a smart nerf on the other hand, that weakens them on TP maps only.
What about...

*Drum roll*

Replacing exiled prince?!
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

Then you kill the civ, but maybe it's balanced yeah
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

Interesting difference of perspective. I think the TP meta killed the civ, and this is one of the few ways we can revive it.
Idk what you find so stimulating about bot semi-FFing, training cav and pressing a shipment every couple min.
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by Cometk »

German civilization will be completely rewritten with exiled prince removal. It has to be the single biggest change to a civ in ep history?
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Re: Beta Trade Route and Trading Post Discussion

Post by edeholland »

Cometk wrote:German civilization will be completely rewritten with exiled prince removal. It has to be the single biggest change to a civ in ep history?
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