Beta Treasure Discussion

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France Kynesie
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Re: Beta Treasure Discussion

Post by Kynesie »

- Give1.2HP2 (20% hero HP for 2 polar bears) I dont like to boost the %hp more.Polars bears are a pain to kill... Remove the tres or remove it from 1v1.
- Coureur5 (1 cdb for 3 renegados) I think it s fine.
- SpawnCattle4 (2 cows for 2 pirates) You doesn t want fight pirates for cow. Even for 3-4 cow... Rework the treasure , change guardians.
- ypSpawnMonkey (1 pet macaque for free) Fine as long as you get the treasure once only, else it can become a problem
- ypSpawnMonkeyPack (5 pet macaques for 2 samurais) Tier 3 or rework it, like 2 macaques for 5 macaques
- ypMizuna2 (195f for 10 macaques) I like this one, which is long to take more than hard. There is a hight risk that opponent try to steal it,which offsets the 195f. But still it s not a good treasure for a competitive 1v1...
France Kaiserklein
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Re: Beta Treasure Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

Thanks for the reply!
Kynesie wrote:- Give1.2HP2 (20% hero HP for 2 polar bears) I dont like to boost the %hp more.Polars bears are a pain to kill... Remove the tres or remove it from 1v1.
I agree, I'd like to remove it too.
Kynesie wrote:- Coureur5 (1 cdb for 3 renegados) I think it s fine.
Okay. You don't feel like people just never take it in age 1? Unless maybe with a warchief civ. So you find this treasure and just keep moving, while opponent finds one of the OP treasures of alaska/hudson?
Kynesie wrote:- SpawnCattle4 (2 cows for 2 pirates) You doesn t want fight pirates for cow. Even for 3-4 cow... Rework the treasure , change guardians.
Yeah I agree, it can't be pirates for cows. Changing guardians could be one way to fix it so that it's viable in 1v1, problem being that we're creating a whole new treasure then. Other solutions would be removing it, or making it 3 cows and spawn only in team maybe.
Kynesie wrote:- ypSpawnMonkey (1 pet macaque for free) Fine as long as you get the treasure once only, else it can become a problem
Well you always get it only once on Kamchatka and Tibet I think. But the thing is when you get it, especially in base, you just have an extra scout for free and your opponent doesn't. Isn't this kinda OP? Also it does 18 damage vs guardians, like an explo in melee
Kynesie wrote:- ypSpawnMonkeyPack (5 pet macaques for 2 samurais) Tier 3 or rework it, like 2 macaques for 5 macaques
It's tier 3 already, could make it tier 4 so that it only spawns in team. But yeah can also change the guardians, I thought about something like 3 macaques for 2 snow leopards.
Kynesie wrote:- ypMizuna2 (195f for 10 macaques) I like this one, which is long to take more than hard. There is a hight risk that opponent try to steal it,which offsets the 195f. But still it s not a good treasure for a competitive 1v1...
Yeah it's not a very good treasure, usually people just don't try to take it (unless japs) so it's just kinda useless in age 1. And if you go for it, doesn't matter if you get it or opponent steals it, 200f is game breaking
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France Kaiserklein
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Re: Beta Treasure Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

For the record, I intend to take final decisions regarding treasures soon, probably at the end of this week. So if anyone is unhappy about some treasure change, it's now or never.
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Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
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Re: Beta Treasure Discussion

Post by EAGLEMUT »

Kaiserklein wrote:Well, I'm assuming it's technically possible to get these nats to gain snare upon colo.
Currently not possible, unless @Kevsoft can make it so, which would be quite nice actually. Could also utilize that to un-nerf native scouts post-Discovery.

Partial workaround would be to create new, separate units, in order to not nerf the regular trained nats. This has several downsides / side-effects; splitting units is an ugly kind of change in general, the rescued units still won't ever gain snare themselves, will no longer be affected by upgrades as expected (unless even more ugly changes are made), will no longer get selected along with units of seemingly same type, etc. Upside is that we could more easily and freely adjust their stats, such as snare, regardless of the regular trained units.
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Italy Garja
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Re: Beta Treasure Discussion

Post by Garja »

I think it's important to recognize that finding better/worse treasures or just skipping a found treasure is just inherent to treasuring. If that wasn't the case, treasuring would simply be a mup up process where the quickest gatherer wins.
It is normal to find a treasure and realize it's useless for the moment and proceed to the next one, just like it's normal to find the best treasure while the opponent finds an average one. Time is still a constraint regardless of what treasure you find so the amount of treasures you can take in age1 is somewhat a constant. Surely if you already took a treasure and your opponent didn't you have more chances to deny a treasure but as long as the map has enough good treasures and they are evenly spread it shouldn't be game deciding most of times.
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France Kaiserklein
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Re: Beta Treasure Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

Of course you're not always supposed to find totally equal treasures. Some treasures will always be inherently better/worse, and some will be situationally better/worse. It's fine if you decide to ignore treasures sometimes because they're not interesting for you right now. This will still be the case.
But is it fine when there are treasures that are simply always ignored, or game breaking, or untakeable for some civs? Imo it's not. At least, not when several of them spawn in random locations on the map, because it can make for a very imbalanced age 1.
Garja wrote:as long as the map has enough good treasures and they are evenly spread
That's exactly what we're working on. To have roughly evenly spread treasures, we need to remove the totally useless ones. For example on Baja or Pampas, it's currently very likely one of the players finds a good treasure, while the other finds livestock, explorer HP, and so on. On some other maps however, like Tassili or High Plains, it's currently acceptable, as only a couple treasures are problematic.
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Re: Beta Treasure Discussion

Post by zoom »

Kaiserklein wrote:When I think about the RE native scout snaring and molesting explorers, despite doing only 5 damage, I don't feel like a multiplier vs explos would be enough
The difference being that French starts with a Native Scout, whereas no civilization starts with an Inca Huaminca or a Nootka Clubman.

Let's start by giving rescued warriors 0.25 vs Heroes and Villagers until Colonial Age. That seems the most focused and least intrusive change, to me. Then, lets reconsider whether penalizing siege damage and removing snare is possible and warranted.
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Re: Beta Treasure Discussion

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:I think it's important to recognize that finding better/worse treasures or just skipping a found treasure is just inherent to treasuring. If that wasn't the case, treasuring would simply be a mup up process where the quickest gatherer wins.
It is normal to find a treasure and realize it's useless for the moment and proceed to the next one, just like it's normal to find the best treasure while the opponent finds an average one. Time is still a constraint regardless of what treasure you find so the amount of treasures you can take in age1 is somewhat a constant. Surely if you already took a treasure and your opponent didn't you have more chances to deny a treasure but as long as the map has enough good treasures and they are evenly spread it shouldn't be game deciding most of times.
I largely agree. I've made similar points, too. I do think there is a balance to be had, though.
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Re: Beta Treasure Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

zoom wrote:The difference being that French starts with a Native Scout, whereas no civilization starts with an Inca Huaminca or a Nootka Clubman.
That doesn't matter though. If you'd find a nat scout treasure, you'd still molest.
zoom wrote:Let's start by giving rescued warriors 0.25 vs Heroes and Villagers until Colonial Age. That seems the most focused and least intrusive change, to me. Then, lets reconsider whether penalizing siege damage and removing snare is possible and warranted.
That will be a good change, except it won't be enough for the nootka and inca. Even if they now deal only 3-4 damage, they're still faster than explorers and get to snare them. So you catch the opponent's explorer and kill it with the nat + your explo.
However, I heard it's currently technically impossible to remove the snare in age 1 only. So even though just giving a multiplier seems inferior to me, I'm fine with it.
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Re: Beta Treasure Discussion

Post by zoom »

Kaiserklein wrote:
zoom wrote:The difference being that French starts with a Native Scout, whereas no civilization starts with an Inca Huaminca or a Nootka Clubman.
That doesn't matter though. If you'd find a nat scout treasure, you'd still molest.
zoom wrote:Let's start by giving rescued warriors 0.25 vs Heroes and Villagers until Colonial Age. That seems the most focused and least intrusive change, to me. Then, lets reconsider whether penalizing siege damage and removing snare is possible and warranted.
That will be a good change, except it won't be enough for the nootka and inca. Even if they now deal only 3-4 damage, they're still faster than explorers and get to snare them. So you catch the opponent's explorer and kill it with the nat + your explo.
However, I heard it's currently technically impossible to remove the snare in age 1 only. So even though just giving a multiplier seems inferior to me, I'm fine with it.
It matters, because it's much less problematic, happening in a small portion of games, and always later into the game, than if you started with the unit. The Native Scout nerf would never have happened, in the past, unless French started with the unit. Regardless, it's sensible, since it's a scout, and every other scout in the entire game lacks snare. I suspect this exception is related to the militarization of the Native Scout that was added in TWC.

I'm not convinced that making the units completely useless is desirable, in the first place. Regardless, they will now be much less abusable.
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Re: Beta Treasure Discussion

Post by Garja »

0.25 btw it's still relevant. Nat scout has 5 damage only but it was really imba just because of the snare.
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Re: Beta Treasure Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

@zoom Sure you don't start with it, but you can easily get it early enough to deny a TP or just kill the explo and get all remaining treasures.

And for the record, we aren't making nats "useless". A nat is
1) an extra scout in age 1
2) helping take treasures
3) an extra unit once in colo
4) still helping you win explorer fights, regardless of snare/multipliers etc
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