Beta V3

[zoom]

After much discussing, reading and reflecting, I expect to release the anticipated next update to the beta, soon. I figured I'd create this thread, for sharing the current draft with everyone:

General

Treasure changes

1. 2 Sheep (guarded by 1 Outlaw Rider & 1 Outlaw Rifleman) increased to 3 Sheep
2. 60 food (Cranberries guarded by two Wolves) increased to 70 food
3. 60 wood (Cottonwood guarded by three Wolves) increased to 75 wood
4. 90 food (Squash guarded by two Wolves) decreased to 75 food
5. 150xp (Sasquatch guarded by two Grizzly Bears) decreased to 130xp
6. 110 wood (Tamarack guarded by three Cougars) decreased to 90 wood
7. 150 wood (Redwood guarded by three Grizzly bears) decreased to 130 wood
8. 1 Pet Tiger (guarded by 2 Rhinos) changed to 1 Pet Tiger (guarded by 2 Tigers)
9. +10% infantry hitpoints (Guide to Healthy Living guarded by 5 Delinquent Thuggees) decreased to +5% infantry hitpoints
10. +5 population cap & space (Cookbook guarded by 3 Tigers) changed to +5 population cap & space (guarded by 2 Tigers)
11. 2 Water Buffaloes (guarded by 4 Tigers) increased to 4 Water Buffaloes
12. 90 wood (Live Oak guarded by 2 Tigers) decreased to 80 wood
13. 1 Pet Coyote (guarded by 3 Coyotes) changed to 1 Pet Coyote (guarded by 2 Coyotes)
14. 2 Cows (guarded by 4 Cougars) changed to 2 Cows (guarded by 3 Cougars)
15. 1 Settler (guarded by 4 Pirates) now only spawns in team games
16. 2 War Dogs (guarded by 3 Alligators) changed to 1 War Dog (guarded by 2 Alligators)
17. 70 wood (Mahogany guarded by 2 Jaguars) now only spawns outside of starting area(s)
18. 120 coin (Moche Gold guarded by 2 Jaguars) decreased to 100 coin
19. 220 coin (Turquoise Mask guarded by 3 Outlaw Blowgunners) decreased to 180 coin
20. 30 wood (Balsa guarded by 1 Outlaw Blowgunner) increased to 40 wood
21. 135 coin (Chocolate guarded by 2 Pirates) changed to 100 coin (guarded by 1 Outlaw Blowgunner & 1 Pirate)
22. 105 coin (Indigo guarded by 2 Alligators) decreased to 90 coin
23. 120 coin (Jade Skull guarded by 2 Jaguars & 1 Outlaw Blowgunner) increased to 135 coin
24. 60 food (Crawdads guarded by 2 Alligators) increased to 80 food
25. 1 Pet Jaguar (guarded by 3 Jaguars) changed to 1 Pet Jaguar (guarded by 2 Jaguars)
26. +20% hero hitpoints (guarded by 3 Jaguars) changed to +20% hero hitpoints (guarded by 2 Jaguars
27. 30 coin (Cochineal guarded by 1 Cougar) increased to 40 coin
28. +30% hero hitpoints (guarded by 3 Grizzly Bears) changed to +30% hero hitpoints (guarded by 2 Grizzly Bears)
29. 1 Pet Cougar (guarded by 3 Cougars) changed to 1 Pet Cougar (guarded by 2 Cougars)
30. 1 Native Scout (guarded by 1 Grizzly Bear) changed to 1 Native Scout (guarded by 2 Cougars)
31. 1 Surgeon (guarded by 4 Cougars) changed to 1 Surgeon (guarded by 3 Cougars)
32. 1 Medicine Man (guarded by 4 Cougars) changed to 1 Medicine Man (guarded by 2 Cougars)
33. 150 coin (Tin guarded by 3 Wolves) decreased to 110 coin
34. 10 coin (Muskrats unguarded) increased to 20 coin
35. 1 Cow (guarded by 3 Coyotes) changed to 1 Cow (guarded by 2 Coyotes)
36. 130 food (Sunflowers guarded by 2 Coyotes & 1 Outlaw Rider) decreased to 110 food
37. 210xp (Ferret guarded by 3 Outlaw Riders) now spawns less frequently
38. +30% hero hitpoints (guarded by 4 Wolves) changed to +30% hero hitpoints (guarded by 3 Wolves)
39. 1 Coureur des Bois (guarded by 4 Grizzly Bears) changed to 1 Coureur des Bois (guarded by 3 Grizzly Bears)
40. +25% target unit speed (Boots guarded by 2 Outlaw Riders & 2 Outlaw Riflemen) decreased to +10% unit speed; now only spawns in team games
41. 1 Coureur des Bois (guarded by 3 Outlaw Riflemen) now only spawns in team games
42 1 Pet Grizzly Bear (guarded by 3 Grizzly Bears) changed to 1 Pet Grizzly Bear (guarded by 2 Grizzly Bears)
43. 1 Cow (guarded by 2 Wolves) changed to 2 Cows (guarded by 3 Wolves)
44. 2 Cows (guarded by 2 Pirates) increased to 3 Cows; now only spawns in team games
45. 1 Settler (guarded by 3 Polar Bears) now only spawns in team games
46. 1 Pet Polar Bear (guarded by 3 Polar Bears) changed to 1 Pet Polar Bear (guarded by 2 Polar Bears)
47. 125 wood (Spruce guarded by 2 Polar Bears) decreased to 110 wood
48. 40 wood (Aspen guarded by 1 Polar Bear) increased to 50 wood
49. +20% hero hitpoints (guarded by 2 Polar Bears) now only spawns in team games
50. 1 Native Scout (guarded by 1 Polar Bear) changed to 1 Native Scout (guarded by 2 Wolves)
51. 150 food (Ptarmigan guarded by 2 Polar Bears) decreased to 120 food
52. 160xp (Journal guarded by 2 Polar Bears) decreased to 130xp
53. 60 wood (Tamarack guarded by 3 Wolves) increased to 75 wood
54. 2 Coureurs des Bois (guarded by 3 Outlaw Riflemen & 2 Outlaw Pistoleros) now only spawns in team games
55. 1 Pet Wolf (guarded by 3 Wolves) changed to 1 Pet Wolf (guarded by 2 Wolves)
56. 80 food (Saskatoon guarded by 2 Outlaw Riflemen) increased to 100 food
57. 1 Pet Rhino (guarded by 5 Black Panthers) changed to 1 Pet Rhino (guarded by 3 Black Panthers)
58. Increased ship line of sight (Farseer guarded by 2 Black Panthers) now only spawns in team games
59. 110 wood (Live Oak guarded by 3 Alligators) decreased to 95 wood
60. +40% hero hitpoints (guarded by 6 Cougars) changed to +40% hero hitpoints (guarded by 3 Cougars)
61. 20 wood (Palmettos guarded by 1 Alligator) increased to 30 wood
62. 235 coin (Chest of Pirate gold guarded by 3 Pirates) now only spawns in team games
63. 2 Settlers (guarded by 2 Outlaw Pistoleros & 3 Pirates) now only spawns in team games
64. 1 Settler (guarded by 3 Black Bears) changed to 1 Settler (guarded by 4 Black Bears)
65. 2 War Dogs (guarded by 3 Black Bears) changed to 1 War Dog (guarded by 2 Black Bears)
66. 1 Pet Black Bear (guarded by 3 Black Bears) changed to 1 Pet Black Bear (guarded by 2 Black Bears)
67. +40% hero hitpoints (guarded by 4 Wolves) changed to +40% hero hitpoints (guarded by 3 Wolves)
68. 1 Llama (guarded by 2 Wolves) increased to 2 Llamas
69. 2 Llamas (guarded by 1 Outlaw Rider & 1 Outlaw Rifleman) increased to 3 Llamas
70. 2 Llamas (guarded by 3 Pirates) increased to 4 Llamas; now only spawns in team games
71. 60 food (Tomatoes guarded by 1 Outlaw Blowgunner) decreased to 45 food
72. 375xp (Rutters guarded by 5 Pirates) now only spawns in team games
73. 1 Settler (guarded by 4 Outlaw Blowgunners) now only spawns in team games
74. 1 Inca Huaminca (guarded by 2 Outlaw Blowgunners) now spawns less frequently
75. 120xp (Porcupines guarded by 3 Wolves) decreased to 100xp
76. 1 Coureur des Bois (guarded by 4 Wolves) changed to 1 Coureur des Bois (guarded by 5 Wolves)
77. 25 wood (Sandalwood guarded by 1 Monitor Lizard) increased to 35 wood
78. 165 coin (Vanilla guarded by 2 Outlaw Riders) decreased to 130 coin
79. 70 food (Potatoes guarded by 3 Cougars) increased to 100f
80. 50 wood (Cottonwood guarded by 3 Coyotes) increased to 65 wood
81. 1 Settler (guarded by 5 Coyotes) changed to 1 Settler (guarded by 6 Coyotes)
82. +10% cavalry hitpoints (Guide to Proper Discipline guarded by 5 Mongol Riders) decreased to +5% cavalry hitpoints
83. +50% Coyoteman and Heavy cavalry damage to villagers (Barbed Spear guarded by 5 Mongol Riders) decreased to +25% Coyoteman and Heavy cavalry damage to villagers
84. Stable Wagon (Construction Team guarded by 3 Mongol Riders) changed to Stable Wagon (Construction Team guarded by 4 Mongol Riders)
85. -10% cavalry train-time (Feed Bag guarded by 2 Mongol Riders) increased (nerfed) to -5% cavalry train time; now only spawns in team games on Thar Desert, and less frequently on Manchuria
86. 30 food (Plums guarded by 1 Lion) increased to 45 food
87. 50 wood (Aspen guarded by 1 Lion) decreased to 40 wood
88. 60 food (Eggplant guarded by 2 Black Panthers) increased to 75 food
89. 80xp (Ferret guarded by 3 Snow Leopards) increased to 120xp
90. 35 food (Barley guarded by 2 Tibetan Macaques) increased to 45 food
91. 50 wood (Aspen guarded by 1 Tiger) decreased to 40 wood
92. 35 coin (Jasmine guarded by 2 Tibetan Macaques) increased to 45 coin
93. 1 Pet Monkey (unguarded) now always and only spawns in every starting area
94. 40xp (Curious Macaque guarded by 2 Tibetan Macaques) increased to 50xp
95. 5 Pet Macaques (Family of Monkeys guarded by 2 Masterless Samurai) now only spawns in team games
96. +30% hero hitpoints (guarded by 1 Masterless Samurai & 1 Mongol Rider) changed to +30% hero hitpoints (guarded by 2 Tigers)
97. 195 food (Wild Mizuna guarded by 10 Tibetan Macaques) changed to 105 food (guarded by 5 Tibetan Macaques)
98. 5% coin discount (Bankbook guarded by 3 Fugitive Dacoit & 1 Tibetan Macaque) changed to 5% coin discount (guarded by 4 Fugitive Dacoits & 1 Tibetan Macaque); now only spawns in team games
99. 5% food discount (Scurvy Prevention Methods guarded by 3 Pandas & 1 Tibetan Macaque) changed to 5% food discount (guarded by 4 Pandas & 1 Tibetan Macaque)
100. 50 coin (Rubber guarded by 3 Black Panthers) increased to 130 coin

– Before Colonial Age, rescued warriors (treasure rewards) now do 1/4 damage to heroes and villagers
– Outlaw Rifleman (treasure guardian) range and line of sight decreased from 18 and 20 to 15 and 17, respectively
– Pirate (treasure guardian) hitpoints decreased from 600 to 400
– 100c dynamic (“random”) starting crate spawn removed (does not impact the 100f+100c spawn)
– Starting Town Center building placement minimum range no longer applies to Trading Posts
– Native Embassy now available to Chinese, Indians, and Japanese
– British Allies hitpoints bonus decreased from 10% to 5%
– Fortress Age councils and politicians (not wonders), except for "The Exiled Prince" and "The Messenger" research points decreased from 110 to 105
– "2 Flatland Castles", "2 Hill Castles" and "3 Mountain Castles" shipments decreased to 1, 1, and 2 Castles, respectively (descriptions and names updated accordingly) [revert]
– Halberdier attack decreased from 30 to 28; hand resistance increased from 10% to 20%

Aztecs
– Coyote Runner hand attack decreased from 20 to 18 [revert]
– “5 Coyote Runners” shipment increased to 6 Coyote Runners
– "Coyote Combat" shipment increased from +20% Coyote Runner hitpoints and +4% Coyote Runner speed to +20% Coyote Runner hitpoints and +10% Coyote Runner speed [revert]
– Temple of Xipe Totec shipment now also increases Coyote Runner ranged resistance from 10% to 20%
– "9 Macehualtins" shipment increased to 10 Macehualtins [revert]
– "8 Macehualtins" Infinite shipment changed to “9 Macehualtins" [revert]
– Temple of Centeotl shipment now also grants the Macehualtin 1 splash radius (damage cap of 16 added accordingly)
– Arrow Knight speed increased from 3.75 to 4
– Great Temple of Quetzalcoatl Support shipment cost reduced from 2000c to 1500c (Religious Unity shipment adjusted accordingly)
– Skull Knight hitpoints increased from 300 to 320
– Great Temple of Huitzilopochtli shipment cost reduced from 2000c to 1500c (Religious Unity shipment adjusted accordingly)

Chinese
– 100w removed from starting crates; dynamic (“random”) starting crates added
– Keshik hand and ranged attacks decreased from 10 to 8 [revert]
– Iron Flail hand attack decreased from 20 to 19 (damage cap decreased from 40 to 38); hitpoints decreased from 320 to 292 [revert]
– Meteor Hammer attack increased from 25 to 29 [revert]

Dutch
– Envoy train points decreased from 30 to 10
– “Tulip Speculation” shipment increased from +15% to +20% Bank coin trickle

Germans
– Unupgraded Trade Routes now deliver 4/5 the experience points
– 2 Settler Wagons and 1 Settler increased to 3 Settler Wagons [revert]
– Uhlan cost reduced from 60f, 100c to 50f, 100c; hitpoints decreased from 190 to 180 [revert]

Indians
– Brahmin Monk Stomp passive ability moved from Discovery to Colonial Age
– Brahmin Monk Stun ability range increased from 0 to 1
– Ottoman Allies line of sight bonus no longer applies to buildings; "Levy" improvement cost increased from 200xprt to 250xprt
– Rajput hand attack decreased from 20 to 18 [partial revert]

Iroquois
– War Chief hitpoints aura decreased from 15% to 10%
– “Crates of 200 Food, 100 Wood, and 100 Coin” INFINITE shipment decreased to 100f, 100w, 100c [revert]

Japanese
– Yabusame ranged attack decreased from 10 to 9 [partial revert]

Portuguese
– 100c removed from starting crates [revert]
– Berry and hunting gather-rates increased by 5%
– "Besteiros" improvement cost reduced from 2400w to 2000w
– Cassador ranged attack "rate-of-fire" increased (nerfed) from 3.5 to 4.5; ranged attack increased from 20 to 25 [extension]

Russians
– Musketeer batch cost increased from 270f, 90c to 285f, 95c [from -4% cost to +1% cost]

Sioux
– “4 Villagers” shipment added [revert]
– Brand new “5 Villagers” shipment added to Colonial Age removed [revert]
– “Mustangs” shipment increased from 10% to 15%

Spanish
– "Spanish Gold" shipment increased from 250c to 400c per shipment; moved to Fortress Age [revert]

Accordingly projected changes from EP6 through Beta V3, excluding treasures

General
– Before Colonial Age, rescued warriors (treasure rewards) now do 1/4 damage to heroes and villagers
– Outlaw Rifleman (treasure guardian) range and line of sight decreased from 18 and 20 to 15 and 17, respectively
– Pirate (treasure guardian) hitpoints decreased from 600 to 400
– 100c dynamic (“random”) starting crate spawn removed (does not impact the 100f+100c spawn)
– Fortress Age councils and politicians (not wonders), except for "The Exiled Prince" and "The Messenger" research points decreased from 110 to 105
– Starting Town Center building placement minimum range no longer applies to Trading Posts
– Native Embassy now available to Chinese, Indians, and Japanese
– Castle cost reduced from 250w, 100c to 250w, 50c (bounties adjusted accordingly)
– Plantation cost reduced from 800w to 600w (bounties adjusted accordingly)
– British Allies hitpoints bonus decreased from 10% to 5%
– Arsonist, Chakram, Grenadier and Young Garde "heavy infantry" tag removed
– Crossbowman inaccuracy removed
– Halberdier hand attack increased from 25 to 28; hand resistance increased from 10% to 20% (Russian Halberdiers adjusted accordingly)
– Spy hitpoints now increases by 25% in Fortress Age
– Jaeger cost increased from 180c to 200c (bounties adjusted accordingly)
– "Cavalry Cuirass" improvement cost reduced from 100w, 300c to 300c
– "Incendiary Grenades" improvement cost reduced from 400w, 300c to 250w, 250c
– "Infantry Breastplate" improvement cost reduced from 200w, 200c to 100w, 100c
– "Socket Bayonet" improvement cost reduced from 400w, 400c to 200w, 200c
– Medicine Man population cost reduced from 1 to 0
– Priest cost reduced from 200c to 150c; bounties adjusted accordingly

Aztecs
– War Chief cover mode added
– Puma Spearman hand attack light infantry multiplier increased from 3 to 3.5
– “5 Coyote Runners” shipment increased to 6 Coyote Runners
– Temple of Xipe Totec shipment now also increases Coyote Runner ranged resistance from 10% to 20%
– Temple of Centeotl shipment now also grants the Macehualtin 1 splash radius (damage cap of 16 added accordingly)
– Eagle Runner Knight speed increased from 6 to 6.5; ranged resistance decreased from 30% to 20%
– Jaguar Prowl Knight hand attack increased from 18 to 20; hitpoints increased from 230 to 240
– Great Temple of Quetzalcoatl Support shipment cost reduced from 2000c to 1500c ("Religious Unity" shipment adjusted accordingly)
– Arrow Knight population cost reduced from 2 to 1; speed increased from 3.75 to 4
– Skull Knight hitpoints increased from 300 to 320
– Great Temple of Huitzilopochtli shipment cost reduced from 2000c to 1500c ("Religious Unity" shipment adjusted accordingly)

British
– "Guard Longbowmen" and "Imperial Longbowmen" improvements set to available, by default; "Yeomen" shipment updated accordingly

Chinese
– 100w removed from starting crates; dynamic (“random”) starting crates added
– Shaolin Master cover mode added; passive-aggressive abilities chance no longer increases to 30% (from 20%) when reaching Colonial Age
– "Old Han Reforms" shipment now includes Keshiks and Steppe Riders; renamed "Old Dynasty Reforms"
– Keshik obstruction radius decreased from 0.79 to 0.65
– "Mongolian" banner-army changed from 3 Keshiks and 3 Hand Mortars to 2 Keshiks and 2 Steppe Riders; cost changed from 495f, 270w to 230f, 170c; train-points decreased from 30 to 25; moved from Fortress to Colonial Age and from Castle to War Academy
– Steppe Rider speed increased from 6.75 to 7.25; obstruction radius decreased from 0.79 to 0.65
– "Black Flag" banner-army changed from 3 Arquebusiers and 1 Flamethrower to 4 Changdao Swordsmen and 2 Meteor Hammers; cost changed from 170w, 425c to 380f, 350c; train-points decreased from 40 to 33; moved from Castle to War Academy

Dutch
– Envoy train points decreased from 30 to 10
– “Tulip Speculation” shipment increased from +15% to +20% Bank coin trickle

French
– Coureur Des Bois cost reduced from 125f to 120f
– "TEAM Early Skirmishers" shipment no longer moves Black Flag banner-army from Fortress to Colonial Age; Now moves Imperial and Territorial banner-armies from Fortress to Colonial Age

Germans
– Unupgraded Trade Routes now deliver 4/5 the experience points
– "Hire Hessian Jaegers" shipment decreased from 13 to 12 Jaegers

Indians
– Brahmin Monk Stomp passive ability moved from Discovery to Colonial Age
– Brahmin Monk Stun ability range increased from 0 to 1
– Taj Mahal "Cease Fire" ability duration decreased from 20 to 15 seconds; now also halves all military unit speed
– Ottoman Allies line of sight bonus no longer applies to buildings; "Levy" improvement cost increased from 200xprt to 250xprt
– Flail Elephant hand attack increased from 5 to 10; population cost reduced from 4 to 3; Mansabdar updated accordingly
– Rajput siege attack increased from 20 to 25; speed increased from 5 to 5.5; Mansabdar updated accordingly

Iroquois
– War Chief hitpoints aura decreased from 15% to 10%
– “Crates of 200 Food, 100 Wood, and 100 Coin” INFINITE shipment decreased to 100f, 100w, 100c [revert]
– Siege Workshop cost reduced from 300w to 200w (bounties adjusted accordingly)

Japanese
– Samurai hand attack increased from 25 to 30
– Yabusame ranged attack increased from 8 to 9

Ottomans
– "Koprulu Viziers" improvement moved from Colonial to Discovery Age
– "Tanzimat" improvement moved from Industrial to Fortress Age
– Imam heal-rate increased from 10 to 20 hitpoints per second
– Spahi ranged resistance increased from 10% to 20%

Portuguese
– 100f added to starting crates [revert]
– Berry and hunting gather-rates increased by 5%
– Settler cost increased from 85f to 100f [revert]
– "Besteiros" improvement cost reduced from 2400w to 2000w
– "Gunpowder Infantry Attack" shipment moved from Industrial to Colonial Age
– "TEAM Gunpowder Infantry Hitpoints" shipment moved from Industrial to Fortress Age
– Cassador ranged attack "rate-of-fire" increased (nerfed) from 3.0 to 4.5; ranged attack increased from 17 to 25
– Organ Gun limber mode speed increased from 1.6 to 2.4; train-points decreased from 45 to 40

Russians
– Musketeer batch cost increased from 270f, 90c to 285f, 95c [from -4% cost to +1% cost]

Sioux
– Teepee gather-rate aura increased from 3% to 5%; no longer stacks; range decreased from 24 to 18
– Teepee hitpoints aura increased from 7% to 10%
– "Aggressive Expansion" shipment increased from +2% to +5% Teepee gather-rate aura; now also increases all Teepee auras' range from 18 to 24
– “4 Villagers” shipment added [revert]
– Brand new “5 Villagers” shipment added to Colonial Age removed [revert]
– “Mustangs” shipment increased from 10% to 15%
– War Club hand attack increased from 10 to 12
– Rifle Rider cost reduced from 120f, 100c to 120f, 90c (bounties adjusted accordingly)

Spanish
– "Unction" shipment now comes with 2 Missionaries
– "Caballeros" shipment changed from +1 hand attack infantry multiplier to +1 hand attack infantry multiplier and +1 hand attack range for Lancers

In the event that anyone is unaware, the notes of the current build (V2) are available here.

Please understand that the beta (including this draft) is subject to further revisions. Prior to its conclusion, I am also expecting to conduct numerous polls, to decide numerous things.

At this time, I am especially wondering:

Whether removing the Puma Spearman "Siege Trooper" tag risks making the Aztec rush impossible to counter, with the "5 Coyote Runners" shipment buff not being particularly relevant to this question.
Whether the Chinese risks being underpowered.
Whether to further nerf Germans, and if so: How.
Whether to instead nerf the Iroquois in a way that also affects the civilization's Colonial Age performance, and if so: How.
Whether to further buff the Sioux.

Thank you all for your continued input!

[zoom]

As you may be aware, by default, every civilization in the game has a certain set of starting crates. Then, every game, one of the following five sets of crates is added to the starting crates of all players (with the previous exception of Chinese, to whom nothing was ever added):

1. 100f
2. 100w
3. 100c
4. 100f+100w
5. 100f+100c

Each "random" set of crates is selected with identical frequency by the game. This set is always identical for all players in a given game.

Given the changes in the OP, these are the resulting differences, for the Chinese:

1. +100f-100w (a nerf)
2. +100w-100w (no-change)
3. +100c-100w
4. +100f+100w-100w (a buff)
5. +100f+100c-100w (arguably a nerf)

Please note that these changes will render the civilization possible to balance in every given game, since its strength now varies with the crate start – as is the case for every other civilization in the game. When considering the impact in cases "1"-"5" above, I suggest you take into account, how the respective crate set affected balance, previously. For example, while "4" is a considerable buff, Chinese used to underperform on this start, due to the fact that every other civilization received an additional 100f, whenever it occured. Using "2" as a benchmark might prove helpful in understanding the outcomes.

[WickedCossack]

Just a comment on the following:
– Stagecoach line of sight increased from 0 to 15 for all six expansion civilizations
– Iron Horse line of sight increased from 0 to 15 for all six expansion civilizations

I like the idea to make this consistent between all civs but surely it's better to put all civs down to 0, and not to give all vision?

4 TP's across a map already offer a lot of vision, don't think they need a rng cart that the opposing player can't track scouting any units crossing the route

[edeholland]

@EAGLEMUT @Kevsoft Is there any chance we can remove the TP icon from the score board? Before going into whether that's preferable (I think most players think it is) I would like to know whether it's technically possible.

[Garja]

Some of those changes are very flawed in the underlying logic.
I mean why would you need some sort of xp mechanic at all costs (nat TPs). Also let's say you take 4 nat posts which equals to 2 TPs. Is that balanced and desired? To me it sounds both unbalanced (too much xp and in trickle form) and also kinda shit design (competes with TPs when they're supposed to be 2 completely different things).
Also why remove the 100g crates. It's just a crate like the others and it's actually cool because it makes things more colonial oriented. It's not an improvement in terms of balance really. It is going to increase the number of times TP civs get a TP in age1 (which apparently most consider problematic). It is also going to increase the number of times Russia gets the food start vs Japan or Germans or Dutch or w/e civ might struggle vs Russia. Brits will more often get 1 extra house and the 4.10 age up. I mean all those cases are ok but I don't see them being preferable to the point that 100g has to be removed. Asian civ vs FF civ with gold start is arguably better for the asian civ (no TP and in Jap vs Brits it often means 4.30 vs 4.30 age up). I'm sure there are plenty of other situations but you got the point. It's just an arbitrary decision with ass logic.

[n0el]

I don’t understand the logic of the minus 100c change at all. Isn’t the argument against fixed crates that it decreases variety? This does that and doesn’t help
Balance at all. In fact it makes the gap between a wood / no wood start even larger.

[deleted_user]

I like the change list Zoi, looking much better than previous ones. However I would request removing +100w dynamic crates from all civs if we were to implement fixed crates ( and thats what it meant for ), if we can implement it, I think germany wouldn't need additional nerf once you extend fixed crates for wood start aswell, since 200w start is the biggest reason why germany is unstoppable imo.

[WickedCossack]

Can we also limit future patches to like 3-5 changes maximum (excluding reverts.)

This starts to become like age sanc FP version 2 with so many changes that you are playing a different game.

When you limit yourself to so few changes the idea is you end up putting only through the most critical balance issues and have enough control to assess the consequences of the changes.

[WickedCossack]

I like the change list Zoi, looking much better than previous ones. However I would request removing +100w dynamic crates from all civs if we were to implement fixed crates ( and thats what it meant for ), if we can implement it, I think germany wouldn't need additional nerf if you can extend fixed crates for wood start aswell, since 200w start is the biggest reason why germany is unstoppable imo.

Also would be a good to get a full change list for the new patch as I'm not sure everyone is aware this is a change list since the first proposed beta, hence isn't actually the full patch change list.

Initial change list: viewtopic.php?f=80&t=17932

[edeholland]

I like the change list Zoi, looking much better than previous ones. However I would request removing +100w dynamic crates from all civs if we were to implement fixed crates ( and thats what it meant for ), if we can implement it, I think germany wouldn't need additional nerf if you can extend fixed crates for wood start aswell, since 200w start is the biggest reason why germany is unstoppable imo.

Also would be a good to get a full change list for the new patch as I'm not sure everyone is aware this is a change list since the first proposed beta, hence isn't actually the full patch change list.

Initial change list: viewtopic.php?f=80&t=17932

This V3 has not been implemented yet which is why there isn't an updated change list yet, I except it will be released when this patch is actually implemented in the beta.

[n0el]

I think he meant the full V3 changes. Because AFAIK it is these plus the others, not listed.

[zoom]

Also added to the OP: In the event that anyone is unaware, the notes of the current build (V2) are available here.

Thank you to Goodspeed for inadvertently giving me the idea!

[zoom]

Just a comment on the following:
– Stagecoach line of sight increased from 0 to 15 for all six expansion civilizations
– Iron Horse line of sight increased from 0 to 15 for all six expansion civilizations

I like the idea to make this consistent between all civs but surely it's better to put all civs down to 0, and not to give all vision?

4 TP's across a map already offer a lot of vision, don't think they need a rng cart that the opposing player can't track scouting any units crossing the route

For balance purposes, I'm inclined to agree. The problem is that it's removing a feature from the game, which I'd rather not do, unless the alternatives aren't acceptable. Making civilizations consistent without removing anything seems preferable.

I would argue that the key feature, in this regard, is that TWC civilizations have all sockets scouted, by default. I think it's only punitive and silly that the effect of identical trade route upgrades varies between original and expansion civilizations.

I don't know that it's warranted, but one option is limiting line of sight to the Iron Horse, removing it from the Stagecoach. That would at least preserve the feature, to an extent, and buff the former, relative to the latter.

If players consider it a significant balance issue, we should consider options.

[zoom]

Some of those changes are very flawed in the underlying logic.
I mean why would you need some sort of xp mechanic at all costs (nat TPs). Also let's say you take 4 nat posts which equals to 2 TPs. Is that balanced and desired? To me it sounds both unbalanced (too much xp and in trickle form) and also kinda shit design (competes with TPs when they're supposed to be 2 completely different things).
Also why remove the 100g crates. It's just a crate like the others and it's actually cool because it makes things more colonial oriented. It's not an improvement in terms of balance really. It is going to increase the number of times TP civs get a TP in age1 (which apparently most consider problematic). It is also going to increase the number of times Russia gets the food start vs Japan or Germans or Dutch or w/e civ might struggle vs Russia. Brits will more often get 1 extra house and the 4.10 age up. I mean all those cases are ok but I don't see them being preferable to the point that 100g has to be removed. Asian civ vs FF civ with gold start is arguably better for the asian civ (no TP and in Jap vs Brits it often means 4.30 vs 4.30 age up). I'm sure there are plenty of other situations but you got the point. It's just an arbitrary decision with ass logic.

You wouldn't; I just think it would help inter-civilization balance on 0tp maps, and incentivize minor native use, without significant drawbacks. It seems worthwhile to try.

The reasons I am suggesting to remove the 100c start, is that it's the greatest outlier, in terms of inter-civilization balance, and that it doesn't seem to add meaningful variety (that 100f or 100f+100c) already doesn't offer. I think it's a sound compromise between fixed and random crate starts. Athough balance would suffer (particularly for Dutch), I'm happy to keep the 100c start, if players prefer. Compromise is such a dirty word! The essential thing is that Chinese is no longer necessarily unbalanced.

[zoom]

I don’t understand the logic of the minus 100c change at all. Isn’t the argument against fixed crates that it decreases variety? This does that and doesn’t help
Balance at all. In fact it makes the gap between a wood / no wood start even larger.

Actually, it would help balance, since coin is perfectly useful for some civilizations, and less so for others, with Dutch being the most extreme case. It also wouldn't remove variety, other than the nominal value of starting crates. 100f and 100f+100c starts would remain. Please see my above post, too.

I don't see how it makes the gap between starts even larger—or perhaps, what you mean by that.

[Garja]

Some of those changes are very flawed in the underlying logic.
I mean why would you need some sort of xp mechanic at all costs (nat TPs). Also let's say you take 4 nat posts which equals to 2 TPs. Is that balanced and desired? To me it sounds both unbalanced (too much xp and in trickle form) and also kinda shit design (competes with TPs when they're supposed to be 2 completely different things).
Also why remove the 100g crates. It's just a crate like the others and it's actually cool because it makes things more colonial oriented. It's not an improvement in terms of balance really. It is going to increase the number of times TP civs get a TP in age1 (which apparently most consider problematic). It is also going to increase the number of times Russia gets the food start vs Japan or Germans or Dutch or w/e civ might struggle vs Russia. Brits will more often get 1 extra house and the 4.10 age up. I mean all those cases are ok but I don't see them being preferable to the point that 100g has to be removed. Asian civ vs FF civ with gold start is arguably better for the asian civ (no TP and in Jap vs Brits it often means 4.30 vs 4.30 age up). I'm sure there are plenty of other situations but you got the point. It's just an arbitrary decision with ass logic.

You wouldn't; I just think it would help inter-civilization balance on 0tp maps, and incentivize minor native use, without significant drawbacks. It seems worthwhile to try.

The reasons I am suggesting to remove the 100c start, is that it's the greatest outlier, in terms of inter-civilization balance, and that it doesn't seem to add meaningful variety (that 100f or 100f+100c) already doesn't offer. I think it's a sound compromise between fixed and random crate starts. Athough balance would suffer (particularly for Dutch), I'm happy to keep the 100c start, if players prefer. Compromise is such a dirty word! The essential thing is that Chinese is no longer necessarily unbalanced.

Both those assesments are wrong tho.

[zoom]

I like the change list Zoi, looking much better than previous ones. However I would request removing +100w dynamic crates from all civs if we were to implement fixed crates ( and thats what it meant for ), if we can implement it, I think germany wouldn't need additional nerf once you extend fixed crates for wood start aswell, since 200w start is the biggest reason why germany is unstoppable imo.

That wouldn't solve anything, though, unless you also remove 100f+100w, at which point you're removing the option to build a starting TP, completely. It makes more sense to me, to nerf Germans, or Discovery TPs, then.

[n0el]

I don't see how it makes the gap between starts even larger—or perhaps, what you mean by that.

Well, lets take a euro civ for example. on a wood start, you can TP (strongest), you could, on a coin start, go market (second strongest), and now that's gone, so you end on the weakest option (none). The market start for most civs is basically eliminated, except on maps where you know you can reliably get good enough treasures to ensure it times correctly.

[Cometk]

I don't see how it makes the gap between starts even larger—or perhaps, what you mean by that.

Well, lets take a euro civ for example. on a wood start, you can TP (strongest), you could, on a coin start, go market (second strongest), and now that's gone, so you end on the weakest option (none). The market start for most civs is basically eliminated, except on maps where you know you can reliably get good enough treasures to ensure it times correctly.

well there is still the +100f, +100c crate start, so instead of the chance of getting a coin crate being 2/5, it's now 1/4. not quite eliminated

[n0el]

Okay I guess I misunderstood the change. It’s only coin alone being removed, I’m fine with it then.

[Garja]

It's a crap change. It does reduce variety and does not improve inter-civ balance. There are so many combinations of crates and MUs that gold crate certainly favors balance in some of them (I already pointed out few examples). In general whenever change is made to an otherwise mirror crate solution (the current one) it's going to be relatively worse for balance.
If anything, one could argue for completely remove any extra crate (including China one) and leave only the base crate which at least follow a consistent and not arbitrary criterium.

[zoom]

Can we also limit future patches to like 3-5 changes maximum (excluding reverts.)

This starts to become like age sanc FP version 2 with so many changes that you are playing a different game.

When you limit yourself to so few changes the idea is you end up putting only through the most critical balance issues and have enough control to assess the consequences of the changes.

Depending on future feedback and results, that's entirely possible. Although less essential (and more risky) than the limited scope of EP7, for example, I think it would be worthwhile to improve the viability of council, politician and wonder options, in another release. I'm definitely willing to limit future updates, further.

As reflected by this update, I agree that changes of significant risk to inter-civilization balance must be limited. I don't think that many of the changes in the beta are likely to adversely and significantly affect inter-civilization balance – especially not with the suggested changes. Speaking of which, I also wonder if you realize that many of the changes in the current V3 draft are reverting previous beta changes.

I largely agree with you. I simply disagree that buffing or nerfing a few civilizations, relative to others, is the only priority. At this point, more significant issues remain unaddressed. Continuing to ignore them were both foolish and irresponsible. I think a minor compromise on the part of those who are averse to change is both justified and reasonable. It's worth an attempt. Keeping a greater perspective, the changes are actually rather limited.

[zoom]

Just a comment on the following:
– Stagecoach line of sight increased from 0 to 15 for all six expansion civilizations
– Iron Horse line of sight increased from 0 to 15 for all six expansion civilizations

I like the idea to make this consistent between all civs but surely it's better to put all civs down to 0, and not to give all vision?

4 TP's across a map already offer a lot of vision, don't think they need a rng cart that the opposing player can't track scouting any units crossing the route

For balance purposes, I'm inclined to agree. The problem is that it's removing a feature from the game, which I'd rather not do, unless the alternatives aren't acceptable. Making civilizations consistent without removing anything seems preferable.

I would argue that the key feature, in this regard, is that TWC civilizations have all sockets scouted, by default. I think it's only punitive and silly that the effect of identical trade route upgrades varies between original and expansion civilizations.

I don't know that it's warranted, but one option is limiting line of sight to the Iron Horse, removing it from the Stagecoach. That would at least preserve the feature, to an extent, and buff the former, relative to the latter.

If players consider it a significant balance issue, we should consider options.

According to Eaglemut, expansion civilizations missing Stagecoach and Iron Horse line of sight is most likely a developer oversight. I, for one, am shocked!

[Mitoe]

@zoom does this change list include all of the changes that will be included in V3, or will other changes in V2 be added onto this list when the list is updated?

Also why remove the 100g crates. It's just a crate like the others and it's actually cool because it makes things more colonial oriented. It's not an improvement in terms of balance really. It is going to increase the number of times TP civs get a TP in age1 (which apparently most consider problematic). It is also going to increase the number of times Russia gets the food start vs Japan or Germans or Dutch or w/e civ might struggle vs Russia. Brits will more often get 1 extra house and the 4.10 age up. I mean all those cases are ok but I don't see them being preferable to the point that 100g has to be removed. Asian civ vs FF civ with gold start is arguably better for the asian civ (no TP and in Jap vs Brits it often means 4.30 vs 4.30 age up). I'm sure there are plenty of other situations but you got the point. It's just an arbitrary decision with ass logic.

To be perfectly honest everything you said here makes fixed crates sound really appealing. Why are you against that again?

– Starting Town Center building placement minimum range no longer applies to Trading Posts

Not sure how I feel about this. I would say this is a mostly unnecessary change, and I'm not convinced it's even preferable to the current system.

– Unique minor native alliances now grant a trickle of 0.6xp per second, while they last

I don't know how I feel about this either. I'll take it just because non-TP maps really need some kind of xp income at this point, I guess.

– 100w removed from starting crates; dynamic (“random”) starting crates added
– Village cost reduced from 200w to 180w (bounties adjusted accordingly)

Meh...

– Envoy train points decreased from 30 to 10

Seems unecessary, IMO. If anything make the change smaller. Perhaps 30 to 25 or 20?

– Musketeer batch cost increased from 270f, 90c to 285f, 95c [from -4% cost to +1% cost]

Just let it have the decimal, it's not a big deal, really.

Sioux
– “4 Villagers” shipment added [revert]
– Brand new “5 Villagers” shipment added to Colonial Age removed [revert]
– “Mustangs” shipment increased from 10% to 15%

Does this mean teepees are remaining the same?

– Berry and hunting gather-rates increased by 5%

Must we? Surely there's better ways of balancing the civ.

Whether to further nerf Germans, and if so: How.

Is the 13 Jaeger > 12 Jaeger change listed in V2 still going through? That should probably be included. This plus the additional 5 seconds on fast age seems like a reasonable starting point.

Whether to further buff the Sioux.

I'm confused. If teepees are not being changed than they're OP. I will wait to hear confirmation of whether or not the V3 change list is missing changes from the V2 change list.


Other notes:
Can we please include the Japanese deck "bug fix" as a balance change? It's arguably the largest balance change in this whole list at a competitive level--not to mention that it's debatable whether or not it even is a "bug." If anything it should probably be reverted, to be honest.

[Garja]

Also why remove the 100g crates. It's just a crate like the others and it's actually cool because it makes things more colonial oriented. It's not an improvement in terms of balance really. It is going to increase the number of times TP civs get a TP in age1 (which apparently most consider problematic). It is also going to increase the number of times Russia gets the food start vs Japan or Germans or Dutch or w/e civ might struggle vs Russia. Brits will more often get 1 extra house and the 4.10 age up. I mean all those cases are ok but I don't see them being preferable to the point that 100g has to be removed. Asian civ vs FF civ with gold start is arguably better for the asian civ (no TP and in Jap vs Brits it often means 4.30 vs 4.30 age up). I'm sure there are plenty of other situations but you got the point. It's just an arbitrary decision with ass logic.

To be perfectly honest everything you said here makes fixed crates sound really appealing. Why are you against that again?

How does it make appealing? I'm just saying that no crate combination should be preferred.
I think I'm kinda done discussing ths beta for now anyway. Lot of changes are simply bad. I'll just try to veto them when it comes to the actual patch.