Beta V3

User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Beta V3

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:
zoom wrote: General
– Any time a Trading Post has been built on a minor native settlement, the player that built it now receives 100xp – Eaglemut (we love you!) has discovered that this change is currently implementable. It is most significant in the early game, where minor natives are generally the least viable. It should encourage allying with them, increasing options without being overpowering.
Well this change has the same conceptual flaw of the xp trickle and possibly is even worse because it incentives taking nat posts but not holding them.
Also 100xp is objectively a lot early on (2 arkasans passes). Nat rushes are insanely boosted from this change.
Aztecs
– Arrow Knight speed increased from 3.75 to 4 – By command of Garja himself. Although I lack his spirit, I think it's a positive change, without significant risk.
– Temple of Xipe Totec shipment now also increases Coyote Runner ranged resistance from 10% to 20% – This will help the unit's viability in the late game—especially when it comes to countering ranged infantry.
– Temple of Centeotl shipment now also adds 1 to Macehualtin splash radius – This will help the unit's viability in the late game—especially when it comes to countering light cavalry and ranged infantry. Please note that it may be substituted with a safer one, unless testing instills confidence.
– Great Temple of Huitzilopochtli shipment cost reduced from 2000c to 1500c (Religious Unity shipment adjusted accordingly)
– Great Temple of Quetzalcoatl Support shipment cost reduced from 2000c to 1500c (Religious Unity shipment adjusted accordingly)
I think I have pointed it out already but 20% for coyotemen is potentially problematic. The unit is already hard to counter when massed and pretty deadly with the attack dance. As discussed that card should just provide few more units to be in line with the other temple cards.
Also, 1.5k gold is still a lot for those card to be any viable. 1k gold with half the units would be a better change.
What conceptual flaw, now? I agree that it's less ideal than the trickle, although it definitively incentives holding native TPs; only less so than its alternative. Also, while improving the viability of minor natives is half of the point of the change, xp helps any strategy!

At the point in time where the temple shipments become viable, it seems thoroughly unlikely that buffs to them were problematic, in any case other than the Eagle Runner Knight. Aztecs seems to struggle mightily, to counter massed ranged infantry, in the late game.
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Beta V3

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:Eh, just list in both or put an asterisk or w/e
I intend to do just that!
Garja wrote:Well I admit I didn't notice it was only the bare 100g variation. Rush civs may be better with that, or on the opposite it provides the gold for the mm. Also it changes certain age up times. Regardless of which civs benefit the most from that, it's still one more combination so it does add variety.
The change is just another example of urge to change stuff without a clear effect.
Complete nonsense. It doesn't add variety, then—it decreases it by making one variety more likely than others. Please see the poll I made on the topic.
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Beta V3

Post by zoom »

Kaiserklein wrote:
EAGLEMUT wrote:Whether a bug is causing something to be hugely buffed or nerfed should really not be a reason to call it a balance change. It's still just a bug that was fixed with the intent to make the game less bugged, not to balance it.
Nah, the point of this change is to buff japan. So to me it's a balance change.

It's in fact such a big balance change that most likely no others are needed to buff japan, in fact mitoe or hazza (or me ofc) even think it's too much of a buff already.
Not at all! Buffing Japanese is incendentally considered desirable. Well, it was, just a month ago, when players were expressing their concern for how weak the civilization is. Like I say: Some change their opinion on a whim.

As long as the bug is resolved, I'm happy to nerf the civilization otherwise.
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Beta V3

Post by zoom »

Mitoe wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
I really think people are overrating the affect of removing the 2x.
Seems so
We’re not overrating it. I think over half of my losses to Japan are a result of not checking which shipments they are sending in Colonial and getting caught off guard by what is otherwise a nearly unscoutable (or at least unscoutable in time to react) ashigaru rush for example.

Japan is currently ONLY balanced because of how effectively the opponent can react to / counter whatever Japan does. Once we make it significantly harder to scout on top of limiting how early you can scout it I’m certain Japan is going to be very very strong.
Consider Japanese very, very nerfed, then.

I suppose the interesting question is this: Is there any good reason that you should be able to see what specific shipments your Japanese opponent has sent, by looking at its deck? If there is not, we should fix it, and balance the civilization, accordingly.
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Beta V3

Post by zoom »

After further consideration, I have made the following updates to the draft:

Added:

General
– 100c dynamic (“random”) starting crate spawn removed (100f+100c remains) – as per polling.
– Fortress Age councils and politicians (not wonders), except for "The Exiled Prince" and "The Messenger" research points decreased from 110 to 105 – Splitting the change to Fortress Age councils and politicians, in two directions, is less disruptive to builds and helps minimize adverse effects on balance; particularly for TAD civilizations who would otherwise benefit to an undesirable degree. It also takes the place of a Spanish buff. Ultimately, "The Messenger" is now consistent across ages, decreasing the time of aging by 60s, rather than excessively decreasing the time to reach Fortress Age by 70s.
– British Allies hitpoints bonus decreased from 10% to 5% – as per polling.
– Treasures – Thank you, Kaiserklein and Mitoe for your work!

Germans
– Unupgraded Trade Routes now deliver 3/4 the experience points – It seems as though nerfing "13 Jägers" weren't enough; least of all, now that "The Exiled Prince" isn't being nerfed, further. This seems the best option. It's the only nerf that I can think of, that isn't intrusive, doesn't diminish the bonus of the civilization, and doesn't affect 0tp maps. It's only one drawback, that I can see – which only the likes of Goodspeed and myself should mind.

Iroquois
– War Chief hitpoints aura decreased from 15% to 10% – A general nerf makes more sense than making Iroquois cavalry, which already scales poorly and serves as the only Fortress Age counter to artillery, any weaker; especially given that the civilization is powerful in Colonial Age, too. The Iroquois War Chief is exceedingly strong, regardless, with an extra ability.

Japanese
– Yabusame ranged attack decreased from 10 to 9 [partial revert] – If the Yabusame buff was ever risky, it isn't now, surely.

Removed:

General
– Every time a Trading Post has been built on a minor native settlement, the player that built it now receives 100xp
– "The Exiled Prince" & Fortress Age "The Messenger" research-points increased from 45 to 50

Chinese
– Village cost reduced from 200w to 180w (bounties adjusted accordingly)

Iroquois
– Musket Rider ranged resistance decreased from 30% to 20%

Spanish
– Shipment experience points modifier decreased from 0.75 to 0.73 (shipments now require 70% of the regular amount, instead of 75%)

OP updated accordingly. Thank you to everyone for your feedback!
:flowers:
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Beta V3

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

The patch sounds more reasonable now. I think that the Spain change shouldn't be removed however (combined with the TP nerf, it's going to be a big nerf to Spain.

Furthermore, I'd like to see the 6 coyote change reverted, as it just doesn't make sense. Most of the civs have one weak military shipment (4flails, 5 uhlans, 6 cetans etc) and it's not an issue.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Beta V3

Post by Garja »

zoom wrote: Germans
Unupgraded Trade Routes now deliver 3/4 the experience points
Does this mean only for Germans? Is it technically possible? Also, if it is, why 75% and not just a 10% nerf, consistent with the civ negative bonus?
Removed:

General
– Every time a Trading Post has been built on a minor native settlement, the player that built it now receives 100xp
– "The Exiled Prince" & Fortress Age "The Messenger" research-points increased from 45 to 50

Chinese
– Village cost reduced from 200w to 180w (bounties adjusted accordingly)

Iroquois
– Musket Rider ranged resistance decreased from 30% to 20%

Spanish
– Shipment experience points modifier decreased from 0.75 to 0.73 (shipments now require 70% of the regular amount, instead of 75%)
When were these changes even made in the first place?
Image Image Image
User avatar
United States of America Cometk
Retired Contributor
Posts: 7257
Joined: Feb 15, 2015
Location: California

Re: Beta V3

Post by Cometk »

Garja wrote:
zoom wrote: Removed:

General
– Every time a Trading Post has been built on a minor native settlement, the player that built it now receives 100xp
– "The Exiled Prince" & Fortress Age "The Messenger" research-points increased from 45 to 50

Chinese
– Village cost reduced from 200w to 180w (bounties adjusted accordingly)

Iroquois
– Musket Rider ranged resistance decreased from 30% to 20%

Spanish
– Shipment experience points modifier decreased from 0.75 to 0.73 (shipments now require 70% of the regular amount, instead of 75%)
When were these changes even made in the first place?
no changes have been implemented yet - this thread is a draft of changes for beta version 3
Image
User avatar
Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
ESOC Dev Team
Donator 05
Posts: 4513
Joined: Mar 31, 2015
ESO: EAGLEMUT
Clan: WPact

Re: Beta V3

Post by EAGLEMUT »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:The patch sounds more reasonable now. I think that the Spain change shouldn't be removed however (combined with the TP nerf, it's going to be a big nerf to Spain.
The TP nerf is supposed to be German-only, it doesn't affect Spain.
Image
momuuu wrote: theres no way eaglemut is truly a top player
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Beta V3

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:
zoom wrote: Germans
Unupgraded Trade Routes now deliver 3/4 the experience points
Does this mean only for Germans? Is it technically possible? Also, if it is, why 75% and not just a 10% nerf, consistent with the civ negative bonus?
Removed:

General
– Every time a Trading Post has been built on a minor native settlement, the player that built it now receives 100xp
– "The Exiled Prince" & Fortress Age "The Messenger" research-points increased from 45 to 50

Chinese
– Village cost reduced from 200w to 180w (bounties adjusted accordingly)

Iroquois
– Musket Rider ranged resistance decreased from 30% to 20%

Spanish
– Shipment experience points modifier decreased from 0.75 to 0.73 (shipments now require 70% of the regular amount, instead of 75%)
When were these changes even made in the first place?
Correct. Eaglemut believes so. If it turns out not to be the case, I will adapt. The reason that it isn't ~9.1% is that it only applies to Trading Post deliveries, which allow the player to circumvent the balance check, to an extent. Let's start at -20%, then. Personally, I would prefer simply nerfing the shipment multiplier, though.

They were never made. They were added to the draft found in the OP, either when the thread was created, or at a later point in time, as advertized in my posts, ITT.

I think people could learn a lot if they read my posts, sometimes.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Beta V3

Post by Garja »

Cometk wrote:
Garja wrote:
zoom wrote: Removed:

General
– Every time a Trading Post has been built on a minor native settlement, the player that built it now receives 100xp
– "The Exiled Prince" & Fortress Age "The Messenger" research-points increased from 45 to 50

Chinese
– Village cost reduced from 200w to 180w (bounties adjusted accordingly)

Iroquois
– Musket Rider ranged resistance decreased from 30% to 20%

Spanish
– Shipment experience points modifier decreased from 0.75 to 0.73 (shipments now require 70% of the regular amount, instead of 75%)
When were these changes even made in the first place?
no changes have been implemented yet - this thread is a draft of changes for beta version 3
when did they have been discussed then
Image Image Image
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Beta V3

Post by zoom »

According to polling, I am adding the following changes to the draft for the update:

– Brahmin Monk Stomp passive ability moved from Discovery to Colonial Age
– Brahmin Monk Stun ability range increased from 0 to 1

I apologize for the substantial delay, and continue to have no idea when a release will happen. I hope it will be soon. Thank you for your patience!

OP updated, accordingly.
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Beta V3

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:
Cometk wrote:
Show hidden quotes
no changes have been implemented yet - this thread is a draft of changes for beta version 3
when did they have been discussed then
I'm not sure what you mean. The vast majority of changes have been discussed either on ESOC, or in private messages with players—or both. All changes are subject to continued discussion, throughout the beta, and beyond.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV