Should the "26 Rattan Shields" shipment be nerfed in either of the ways described?

Yes
4
67%
No
2
33%
 
Total votes: 6

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21 Nov 2019, 20:27

I am wondering whether to nerf the "26 Rattan Shields" shipment, in one of the following two ways:

1. Removing a unit from the shipment (it is currently worth precisely one unit more than the Indians' Tiger Claws shipment and the Japanese's Sohei shipment).
2. Adding the "coyoteman" unit-tag to both the Rattan Shield and the Tiger Claw (currently, these units lack the tag, which means they aren't countered by light cavalry (or the Eagle Runner Knight), despite being pseudo-heavy cavalry. Whether this is a bug isn't certain, beyond a doubt, but matters little to whether it's desirable).

In case of a positive outcome, to this poll, there will be another one to choose between the above options.
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France Kaiserklein
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21 Nov 2019, 20:33

Yes this shipment is currently quite broken, however it's due to the unit iself being broken. I don't think removing 1 rattan would really change anything, but adding the coyote tag so that they get properly countered by ranged cav makes a lot of sense. Not only for this shipment, but for rattans overall.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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France [Armag] diarouga
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03 Dec 2019, 19:12

Unnecessary, the China FI is not really a balance issue atm, although it's strong.
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04 Dec 2019, 15:05

Kaiserklein wrote:Yes this shipment is currently quite broken, however it's due to the unit iself being broken. I don't think removing 1 rattan would really change anything, but adding the coyote tag so that they get properly countered by ranged cav makes a lot of sense. Not only for this shipment, but for rattans overall.
That is the idea. The problem is that it might make the shipment unviable, though.

What about removing two units from the shipment, then? It should be significant, without eliminating the viability of the shipment.

I'll try to gather some more opinions, on this.
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04 Dec 2019, 15:06

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Unnecessary, the China FI is not really a balance issue atm, although it's strong.
Especially given the planned changes, I'm inclined to agree. It does seem that this particular shipment is a balance issue, in some cases, though.
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"♪We can ascend 'till we reach De La Heaven; and in a spin we'll hit the Top Ten♫"
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France Kaiserklein
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04 Dec 2019, 16:45

zoom wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Yes this shipment is currently quite broken, however it's due to the unit iself being broken. I don't think removing 1 rattan would really change anything, but adding the coyote tag so that they get properly countered by ranged cav makes a lot of sense. Not only for this shipment, but for rattans overall.
That is the idea. The problem is that it might make the shipment unviable, though.

What about removing two units from the shipment, then? It should be significant, without eliminating the viability of the shipment.

I'll try to gather some more opinions, on this.

Again, the unit itself is broken. You're planning to buff native posts, so going rattans might become real lame. To me it's simply bugged, because other light inf units get countered by goons, so it should just be fixed.
Regardless, I doubt it makes the shipment unviable.
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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04 Dec 2019, 18:01

It is notable, though, that – currently – we practically never see the unit trained.
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Netherlands Mr_Bramboy
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04 Dec 2019, 19:17

Removing 1-2 Rattan from the shipment is just such an ugly and irrelevant change. Either change the tag to light infantry (coyote) or leave it as it is. You can even consider slightly buffing the unit itself as compensation for adding the light infantry tag if you're concerned about the viability of the shipment. If it's undesired to implement a global buff, I'm sure it's possible to add a unit buff to the shipment itself, so the units are upgraded only when the shipment has been sent.
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France Kaiserklein
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04 Dec 2019, 21:02

zoom wrote:It is notable, though, that – currently – we practically never see the unit trained.

If you could train rattans on aggressive maps (no tp and/or low res), you'd see people go for them.
Anyway the simple fact that the unit is bugged should be enough to warrant a fix? I mean goons do almost no damage to them lol
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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06 Dec 2019, 18:28

Mr_Bramboy wrote:Removing 1-2 Rattan from the shipment is just such an ugly and irrelevant change. Either change the tag to light infantry (coyote) or leave it as it is. You can even consider slightly buffing the unit itself as compensation for adding the light infantry tag if you're concerned about the viability of the shipment. If it's undesired to implement a global buff, I'm sure it's possible to add a unit buff to the shipment itself, so the units are upgraded only when the shipment has been sent.
I see neither how it is ugly, nor how a 1/13 nerf is insignificant. It's in the eyes of the beholder, I suppose. Still, I'll make the decision based on the feedback I've received, before release. Thanks, guys!
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"♪We can ascend 'till we reach De La Heaven; and in a spin we'll hit the Top Ten♫"
"♪We're special in other ways – ways our mothers appreciate♫"
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06 Dec 2019, 18:28

Kaiserklein wrote:
zoom wrote:It is notable, though, that – currently – we practically never see the unit trained.

If you could train rattans on aggressive maps (no tp and/or low res), you'd see people go for them.
Anyway the simple fact that the unit is bugged should be enough to warrant a fix? I mean goons do almost no damage to them lol
Maybe we would. The fact remains, players don't generally train the units, wherever the Bhakti and Shaolin appear.

Whether it's bugged is arguable. I would guess that it is, but it's less clear than Japanese shipments being scoutable by deck-inspection, for example. I'm more interested in whether changing it's desirable, than whether it's a bug, regardless. Light cavalry does full damage to both Rattan Shields and Tiger Claws; just no bonus damage. On the other hand, the missing tag also causes both units to take 1/3 more damage from ranged infantry, than heavy cavalry does.

Making training the units less viable hardly seems desirable, nor does making the Chinese shipment unviable (even if Chinese weren't already at risk of being underpowered).
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"♪We can ascend 'till we reach De La Heaven; and in a spin we'll hit the Top Ten♫"
"♪We're special in other ways – ways our mothers appreciate♫"
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Today, 15:50

Based on balance considerations (relating to Chinese, Bhakti and Rattan alike) – including the risk of unviability – and overall split feedback (with the targeted "26 Rattan Shields" shipment nerf being generally unpopular), I currently don't think it wise to make any change to shipment or unit(s). In the future, we should reconsider whether to add the tag to the units, with greater input from players.
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"♪We can ascend 'till we reach De La Heaven; and in a spin we'll hit the Top Ten♫"
"♪We're special in other ways – ways our mothers appreciate♫"

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