Closed Fixing Starting Crates

Should starting crates be fixed for all civilizations?

Yes
18
78%
No
5
22%
 
Total votes: 23

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Closed Fixing Starting Crates

Post by zoom »

As you may already be aware, about 60% of the community votes on the issue were in favor (slightly more than the previous poll). Considering I'm hesitant towards making the change, based on these figures, I'd like to know how they relate to the invitees of this forum. If there are only a couple of them against it, it might be worth at least testing. Still, let's see what the turnout is, first.

I guess we can add Cuckoo and Hazza to "yes".
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Netherlands edeholland
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Re: Closed Fixing Starting Crates

Post by edeholland »

Who is able to vote on polls in this board?
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Re: Closed Fixing Starting Crates

Post by Cometk »

@edeholland only EP7 discussion group members
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Re: Closed Fixing Starting Crates

Post by zoom »

At this point, strongly considering just removing coin starts. It would do the most for balance, by far, and wouldn't remove any variety, since the options are largely the same as for the food start. It also does away with the arduous task of rebalancing both crate starts, and civilizations accordingly. It seems like an excellent compromise. Then, simply float Chinese crates, without the coin start, and balance accordingly, with relative ease.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Closed Fixing Starting Crates

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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I guess removing coin start is already a win. We still need to do something about TP start though.
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Re: Closed Fixing Starting Crates

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Post by Peachrocks »

Yeah, the random crate should only ever be food. Anything else gives a random advantage for no other reason then 'because'.
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Re: Closed Fixing Starting Crates

Post by deleted_user »

basicly %90-%95 of the top players are fine with it when you include hazza/somppu, we almost have consensus about it. I don't see why we are still being shy to implement the real changes that we all want rather than removing only 100c start. I agree with @Peachrocks, I hope this change will be implemented asap because it will be the best change EP ever done.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Closed Fixing Starting Crates

Post by Goodspeed »

basicly %90-%95 of the top players are fine with it when you include hazza/somppu
Your math is a little off there.
Either way, the fact that only 60% of the whole community is for the change should give one pause. 4 out of 10 against, and often strongly against, isn't great.
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Re: Closed Fixing Starting Crates

Post by deleted_user »

basicly %90-%95 of the top players are fine with it when you include hazza/somppu

Without any disrespect, opinion of top players matter more about fixed crates, because it's not related stuff for major vs captain games, think about dutch vs japan in 100coin start, dutch ages up slightly faster while japan player has to chop 100wood and do nothing with 100 coin, basicly 30 second age up difference than normal game just because of crate starts.
Also, if you really care about numbers, if top players have consensus about something means nothing for you, I don't know much to say about it. What is the psychological acceptance limit for you? %70? current china changes wouldn't even pass %30 acceptance but still stays? And how many of these previous changes has passed the pyshological acceptance limit?
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Closed Fixing Starting Crates

Post by Goodspeed »

You're talking about this poll, right? If you add 2 yes votes it would be at 85%, not 90-95
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Re: Closed Fixing Starting Crates

Post by deleted_user »

You're talking about this poll, right? If you add 2 yes votes it would be at 85%, not 90-95

you are right, it's like %86, but either way, without any disrespect to them, only kaiser and garja dont want fixed crates while rest players are fine with it, including the people outside of the beta forum, what I'm trying to say is, we usually don't have this kind of sensitivity when it comes to implementing random changes, also it is a bit obvious that there is no urge to implement this change for some reason :hmm:
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Re: Closed Fixing Starting Crates

Post by zoom »

I have argued in favor of fixing starting crates for many years, now. I simply think that a poll with over eighty respondents is more representative of community opinion, than one with fewer than twenty, and that making such a fundamental and radical change to the game, when it risks alienating half of the community, is unwise. I would fix crates, if it were at all required to achieve acceptable balance. If it is, only in the case of Germans, I would sooner nerf Germans' Trading Post cost, than fix crates for all civilizations. Thank you for being reasonable, and thinking of other individuals than yourself, too – especially Garja!
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Re: Closed Fixing Starting Crates

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

zoom wrote:I have argued in favor of fixing starting crates for many years, now. I simply think that a poll with over eighty respondents is more representative of community opinion, than one with fewer than twenty, and that making such a fundamental and radical change to the game, when it risks alienating half of the community, is unwise. I would fix crates, if it were at all required to achieve acceptable balance. If it is, only in the case of Germans, I would sooner nerf Germans' Trading Post cost, than fix crates for all civilizations. Thank you for being reasonable, and thinking of other individuals than yourself, too – especially Garja!
Balance matters mostly at high level. Thus, I assume that some lower level players who voted "no" in the other poll couldn't see how helpful fixed crates would be, so that change would be pointless.

Anyway, no offense but if we were to remove all the changes that don't get more than 60% in the EP7, we'd be left with 20% of the changes.
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Re: Closed Fixing Starting Crates

Post by Kaiserklein »

Can't wait to see the large mess this is gonna be when implemented
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Closed Fixing Starting Crates

Post by n0el »

Kaiserklein wrote:Can't wait to see the large mess this is gonna be when implemented
Can’t for wait everyone to literally not care and just enjoy the benefits.
mad cuz bad
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Re: Closed Fixing Starting Crates

Post by Kaiserklein »

Sure, hf balancing with fixed crates, after 6 patches of random crates
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Closed Fixing Starting Crates

Post by Garja »

There are little to no benefits (namely reducing the number of variables to accomodate a lazy and simple minded balance approach) and plenty of drawbacks. Even just the the fact that arbitrarily assigning a specifc crate to a civ is controversial, it is enough to block the change.
I can tell you that I literally won't agree with a single crate assignation, regardless of which it is. There is at least one reason, more or less marginal depending on the specific case, why to keep any of the crates for any of the civs.
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