Iroquois

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What do you think about nerfing this civilization?

[deleted_user]

well, I just can say iro feels quite strong when they have smt like 100w start and combined with early wood treasures so you can afford to take early tp which makes them quite strong, other than that iro is fine I think, I am not really sure if we should nerf iro, if we really want to nerf them, I'd suggest nerfing the special damage of warschief or reducing the warchief bonus, and that would be enough.

[[Armag] diarouga]

People have no clue about Iro.
Iro is obviously too strong.

[Kaiserklein]

Yes it's too strong, and even though it's a civ almost no one used to play because of how broken it is on RE, we now start to see everyone picking them in tournament.

[Garja]

Ye maybe we need to nerf the rush. It's a pity tho cause the civ seems fine overall atm.

[[Armag] diarouga]

The nerf is not the issue.
Iro is too good because it can take the TP line easily with slow age up and age behind it.

Fast age up rush is a nice cheese but there's no follow up so just wall and age.

[Garja]

Other civs can do the same and taking the TP line doesn't grant the win anyway.

[[Armag] diarouga]

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Other civs can do the same and taking the TP line doesn't grant the win anyway.

Nope, other civs don't have a warhut, a 4 kanya shipment and a big button.
Thus, only Russia/India/Aztec can contest the map, the semi FF civs have to defend.

And getting the TP line when you age to fortress at the same time as your opponent with 15℅ better units is a free win btw.

[Garja]

Yes semi FF civs might be on the defensive but 1) they can raid 2) they have marginally superior eco.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yes semi FF civs might be on the defensive but 1) they can raid 2) they have marginally superior eco.

1) You can defend raids.
2) If you get TP line you have more eco.

[Garja]

So we have a game, I don't see why you should add nerf or buffs just because there is a game being played. Both civs have chances. It's unlikely that iro can pick the whole route (and even then if 2 TP out of 3 not big deal) and make use of it without losing something else. Vs ger you can't siege the TP without getting raided or simply losing ur units to ulhans and mm or ulhan w/e else he decides to make in colo. Surely you can make more units but so can him and the more you stay in colonial with a hanging fb the more you get raided in the back and the more the TP becomes less relevant.

[[Armag] diarouga]

So we have a game, I don't see why you should add nerf or buffs just because there is a game being played. Both civs have chances. It's unlikely that iro can pick the whole route (and even then if 2 TP out of 3 not big deal) and make use of it without losing something else. Vs ger you can't siege the TP without getting raided or simply losing ur units to ulhans and mm or ulhan w/e else he decides to make in colo. Surely you can make more units but so can him and the more you stay in colonial with a hanging fb the more you get raided in the back and the more the TP becomes less relevant.

We indeed have a game vs ger but ger is top civ so can't draw conclusions.

Against the other nilla civs however, Iro can take a big lead in early game and they don't really have a weakness to compensate.

10% less eco and no falcs doesn't matter when you have 15℅ stronger units.

[Garja]

Well I get your point and I do agree to some extent but that's mostly the nature of nilla civs having ass units compared to TWC and TAD.
I mean, Brits do struggle vs Iro, at least vs fast age, but it's not cause of units, just cause of the civ it's vulnerable against aggro civs. All the other civs but Russia and Otto have ass units, namely they just lack a real RI unit to play colonial for longer. If that wasn't the case French could play exactly like if it was a mirror, retaining some eco advantage + being on food/gold and aging easier at any point.
Spain can just FF vs iro semi FF, Russia shouldn't really struggle vs toma semi, so in the end it's mostly the fast age up which is a problem.

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Diarouga, Kaiserklein, and Lordraphael agreeing on Iroquois warranting a nerf, has convinced me to make the following change:

– Musket Rider ranged resistance decreased from 30% to 20%