Doppelsoldner Hitpoints Buff Revert

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Should we revert a change that's not very significant to begin with, to a unit that's the best of its kind – of a civilization that is considered strong and set to benefit from the Crossbowman buff?

I'm happy to go with whatever players prefer.

[Cometk]

Even if it were an insignificant viability change on paper (which I do not believe it is), the change in player behavior that makes incorporating dopps into one’s build order much more common than it was previously makes it very worth keeping in the EP (+1 viability, +1 build diversity). An issue might only arise if players still considered doppelsoldners to be too bad, but I strongly believe that dopps being good has very little to do with players’ impression that Germany is presently overpowered.

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It's 4.35%. I don't think that it's insignificant, though.

[Garja]

The key point here is why they got buffed.
Compensation for ulhan nerf seems like the most logical reason. However dopps are already ok per cost. Xbows should be buffed instead.

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The key point here is why they got buffed.
Compensation for ulhan nerf seems like the most logical reason. However dopps are already ok per cost. Xbows should be buffed instead.

That was indeed the only deciding reason, at the time. The Crossbowman is being buffed. The question is whether this buff should then remain or be reverted.

[Kaiserklein]

I doubt it was only because of uhlan hp being nerfed. The unit was definitely considered underwhelming in most match ups. And now on ep with extra hp, they're often still not very good.

I personally don't see the point of reverting that, as it's a nice change that incentivizes colonial play, as well the use of an underused unit. Incidentally, it buffs germany a bit on no tp maps too, as you're more likely to play colonial there. And it doesn't really buff germany's standard strats either, which are the ones people complain about. In fact, it's quite similar to the xbow buff, in terms of consequences (talking about germany only).

Also, as you pointed out yourself Zoi, the 10 hp difference doesn't even matter much in a lot of cases, as it doesn't really change the breaking points, at least vs ranged units (not like you're really gonna try to fight dops in melee anyway, most of the time). It's mostly about euro musks needing 1 more shot to kill them, and imo that's justified, as dops feel extremely underwhelming vs musks and good micro.

[Garja]

For the record ulhan dopp xbow was already viable with 230hp dopps. If you get a good surround on musk it's pretty much gg. And you can always add xbows if too musk heavy.

[Kaiserklein]

xbow/dop does okayish vs musk huss or pure musk, but it still loses if opponent can micro well. I'm ready to try anytime, with even resources invested. Can even add some free uhlans.

I know it cause I've won countless games with xbow/dop/uhlan as a follow up after tower rush, but that's always because they mismicro or took too much damage early on. Whenever it's an even game and the opponent microes well, you just lose the fight.

[Garja]

Im talking more about classic ulhan dopp +8 bow timing on a a generic musk cav combo.

[Kaiserklein]

Well unless you catch him in your base with mm or something, I don't really see that working, as long as he has enough musks

[Garja]

Funny thing is you can proxy mm cause mm will never get touched anyway. But ye I mean at about 8-10 min. Having the not perfect combo is compensated by having extra military pop.

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I doubt it was only because of uhlan hp being nerfed. The unit was definitely considered underwhelming in most match ups. And now on ep with extra hp, they're often still not very good.

I personally don't see the point of reverting that, as it's a nice change that incentivizes colonial play, as well the use of an underused unit. Incidentally, it buffs germany a bit on no tp maps too, as you're more likely to play colonial there. And it doesn't really buff germany's standard strats either, which are the ones people complain about. In fact, it's quite similar to the xbow buff, in terms of consequences (talking about germany only).

Also, as you pointed out yourself Zoi, the 10 hp difference doesn't even matter much in a lot of cases, as it doesn't really change the breaking points, at least vs ranged units (not like you're really gonna try to fight dops in melee anyway, most of the time). It's mostly about euro musks needing 1 more shot to kill them, and imo that's justified, as dops feel extremely underwhelming vs musks and good micro.

What I am saying, is that I am confident, in that it would never have been made, at the time, if the Uhlan hadn't also been nerfed.

As I have said many times, I'm fine with keeping this change, if players want to.

[Goodspeed]

If our only goal with this change was compensating for the uhlan nerf, we would've simply nerfed uhlans less. Iirc my thought at the time was "I'll take any excuse to buff this unit".
One of the changes in patch philosophy is to do more viability changes. Why revert one of the only viability changes we did make in the earlier patches?

Dopps are one of the very few legitimately unique units in the game and should be made more viable if anything, not less.

[Garja]

Well that's what we did nerfing ulhans by 5hp only.
And to answer why to revert, it is to buff xbows instead (a real buff, not just the aim thing). As Germans player I'd take an xbow buff over 10hp dopp buff any day. And xbow buff comes with other pros too.
Anyway it's not clear to me if ulhan hp is being reverted for the cost nerf instead. If that's the case I don't think dopp need 10 more hp.

[Kaiserklein]

And to answer why to revert, it is to buff xbows instead (a real buff, not just the aim thing).

What's wrong with it? Xbows miss roughly 7% of the time, so fixing that is kind of equivalent to giving them +1 attack on average. Except it's more elegant than that, and it also gets rid of some shitty RNG. I don't think bows need more than +1 attack anyway.
I mean, it seriously pisses me when I ship 8 bows and they don't one shoot a musk because one of them miss. For the record that happens almost half the time (0.07^8 = 0.45). Just doesn't really make any sense.

As Germans player I'd take an xbow buff over 10hp dopp buff any day. And xbow buff comes with other pros too.

I'd say ger can use both of these buffs, as their colonial really isn't great. Provided that their stronger strats are properly nerfed of course. And like other german colonial buffs, it's also indirectly a buff for no tp maps, which is good.

[Garja]

Aim buff is nice but I doubt it's enough. I don't think German colo needs both dopp and ulhan and xbow buff.

[Goodspeed]

Well that's what we did nerfing ulhans by 5hp only.
And to answer why to revert, it is to buff xbows instead (a real buff, not just the aim thing). As Germans player I'd take an xbow buff over 10hp dopp buff any day. And xbow buff comes with other pros too.

Why not both?

[Garja]

Idk, suddendly Germans need a colonial buff because they're weak?