Porto vs iro qs

[gamevideo113]

In fortress the cassador is the main and meta unit so it makes to buff it. However since the stats are not too bad (and you don't want a cheaper unit to be straight up better than the standar skirm) we could make a cost buff so that Ports still save some food but also trade more efficiently.

Overall i agree with your points. About cassa, i think there’s a few ways to go about them.
-Cost decreased and shipment adjusted accordingly; i’ve read somewhere that zoi didn’t seem to like this option because he would have preferred to avoid changing shipments (not sure why, since Spain received a lot of shipment adjustment too).
-Buffing speed (necessarily with a lower rate of fire than 3); more speed would allow cassa to force on the enemy the intervals at which they trade shots (e.g. cassa shoot, run out of range and then come back in after 3.5 seconds, while the enemy skirms can only shoot at 3.5 rate, losing potential damage).
Probably it was the initial intended design, but the current speed isn’t really enough for this. Also, if this is the route we wanna take i’d even go all the way to RoF of 4 or 4.5 (not my favourite, because of overkill but i guess that it can reward good micro, with additional speed). I guess it would also differentiate them more from besteiros.
-Just normal hp or other stat buff.

[Garja]

4.5 speed is already sufficient imo to make a difference. Being cheaper + 50% rr + 4.5 speed make it much easier to counter strong musk units such as sepoy and ashigaru. I'm not sure lowering the ROF will grant the same performance against those units since their raid will be more effective.
Anyway if we want to turn cassas into low rof snipers then Ports absolutely need a spammable infantry or anti-infantry unit such as xbows and organs. This is another reason why besteiros and organs also need a buff.

[gamevideo113]

4.5 speed is already sufficient imo to make a difference. Being cheaper + 50% rr + 4.5 speed make it much easier to counter strong musk units such as sepoy and ashigaru. I'm not sure lowering the ROF will grant the same performance against those units since their raid will be more effective.
Anyway if we want to turn cassas into low rof snipers then Ports absolutely need a spammable infantry or anti-infantry unit such as xbows and organs. This is another reason why besteiros and organs also need a buff.

50% rr doesn’t make a big difference since cassa have a lot less hp than standard skirms (ranged hp is 210 for cassa and 205 for skirm). The fact that they are cheaper in VS is one of the few advantages that cassa have over normal skirm, yes.
5 speed would also compensate for the poor HP since they can run better from cav or cannons, i guess.
We also have to keep in mind that presumably cassa will be cardable in colonial/fortress (which also makes using veteran musk better, which is not an unreasonable option for ports)
What do you think would be the ideal change for cassa? Imo 75/70f 35g cassa (with shipment tweaks) would be ideal, if @zoom doesn’t veto it.

I don’t think besteiros can become a particularly good anti-musk unit due to the low multiplier and low range, but they can surely trade efficiently and they are very spammable. Just making the tech more accessible will be enough. Like 1600w for 12 xbows, idk.

Also, organs in bombard mode have 2.4 speed now in the beta (same as horse artillery), which is an interest change imo. Overall i feel like organs are already the best answer ports have to big masses of infantry (they do well against big masses in general), unless you have CIR on cassa.

This would surely be a good starting point for the next patch. Hopefully their weak early game can be somewhat compensated for with unit buffs.

[Garja]

higher ranged hp for an already cheaper price is quite a thing, hence 50% rr is so good vs musks. 5 speed would be insane trust me. 70f 35g sounds good.
organs are indeed the best answer to infantry (the real problem is mass skirms, musk units are a terrible idea vs ports) and they're viable already but they can see more buffs.
Port early game isn't terrible. 13v with eco theory is 14.3 vills and soon it scales into more. The free TC counts for 10pop so it saves 100w and the civ still has steel traps.

[gamevideo113]

Not a huge fan of eco theory myself. I have been using it for a while but it's a very long term investment. Lately I've even been thinking about sending the explorer combat+dog card. It lets you get pretty big treasures even in the discovery age (like the 320 XP on great plains) that can make your start a lot better, since the dog has an insane DPS vs guardians. The wider spyglass is a nice plus but not that relevant though.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea, not worth unless age 1 TP.

[zoom]

In fortress the cassador is the main and meta unit so it makes to buff it. However since the stats are not too bad (and you don't want a cheaper unit to be straight up better than the standar skirm) we could make a cost buff so that Ports still save some food but also trade more efficiently.

Overall i agree with your points. About cassa, i think there’s a few ways to go about them.
-Cost decreased and shipment adjusted accordingly; i’ve read somewhere that zoi didn’t seem to like this option because he would have preferred to avoid changing shipments (not sure why, since Spain received a lot of shipment adjustment too).
-Buffing speed (necessarily with a lower rate of fire than 3); more speed would allow cassa to force on the enemy the intervals at which they trade shots (e.g. cassa shoot, run out of range and then come back in after 3.5 seconds, while the enemy skirms can only shoot at 3.5 rate, losing potential damage).
Probably it was the initial intended design, but the current speed isn’t really enough for this. Also, if this is the route we wanna take i’d even go all the way to RoF of 4 or 4.5 (not my favourite, because of overkill but i guess that it can reward good micro, with additional speed). I guess it would also differentiate them more from besteiros.
-Just normal hp or other stat buff.

I don't dislike it, so much as I consider options preferable.

1. I'd rather make the Cassador a more unique unique unit, than cheaper.
2. I'd also rather make one change, than five (buffing Cassador cost would involve buffing unit shipments), unless the latter has substantial benefit.
3. Spanish received buffs to certain military shipments, because those shipments were changed to be artificially, excessively, and punitively weak, in the first place. Other than being especially sound, they are effectively reverts.

For the current beta, I doubt that Portuguese warrants further unit buffs, regardless. However, I do think the civilization warrants a general buff, which helps fishing builds disproportionately little.

[gamevideo113]

In fortress the cassador is the main and meta unit so it makes to buff it. However since the stats are not too bad (and you don't want a cheaper unit to be straight up better than the standar skirm) we could make a cost buff so that Ports still save some food but also trade more efficiently.

Overall i agree with your points. About cassa, i think there’s a few ways to go about them.
-Cost decreased and shipment adjusted accordingly; i’ve read somewhere that zoi didn’t seem to like this option because he would have preferred to avoid changing shipments (not sure why, since Spain received a lot of shipment adjustment too).
-Buffing speed (necessarily with a lower rate of fire than 3); more speed would allow cassa to force on the enemy the intervals at which they trade shots (e.g. cassa shoot, run out of range and then come back in after 3.5 seconds, while the enemy skirms can only shoot at 3.5 rate, losing potential damage).
Probably it was the initial intended design, but the current speed isn’t really enough for this. Also, if this is the route we wanna take i’d even go all the way to RoF of 4 or 4.5 (not my favourite, because of overkill but i guess that it can reward good micro, with additional speed). I guess it would also differentiate them more from besteiros.
-Just normal hp or other stat buff.

I don't dislike it, so much as I consider options preferable.

1. I'd rather make the Cassador a more unique unique unit, than cheaper.
2. I'd also rather make one change, than five (buffing Cassador cost would involve buffing unit shipments), unless the latter has substantial benefit.
3. Spanish received buffs to certain military shipments, because those shipments were changed to be artificially, excessively, and punitively weak, in the first place. Other than being especially sound, they are effectively reverts.

For the current beta, I doubt that Portuguese warrants further unit buffs, regardless. However, I do think the civilization warrants a general buff, which helps fishing builds disproportionately little.

1.

The thing is, if i were to create a civ and choose what units they have, i'd pick regular skirms over cassadores, because regular skirms are consistently slightly stronger (for a marginally higher cost) despite being a non unique unit. (Same reason why i'd pick sepoy over euro musk, except sepoy is an unique unit and euro musk isn't. I'm not saying to buff cassa to the point where they are what sepoy are to euro musk, i'd just like cassa to be "preferable" to skirms). Maybe this idea comes from a poor estimation (it's definitely possible, since i'm not a top player), but i don't think i'm the only one who feels like this about cassa.
2. Buffing unit shipments would be an intentional buff as well, not just a consequential adjustment to the cost reduction. 8 cassa is inferior to 8 skirms, 7 cassa inferior to 7 skirms, 2 organ guns is inferior to 2 falcs. Better give some love to the poor Ports! Especially because cassadores are supposed to be their main squeeze in age3.
3. Fair enough. I really don't think we should be holding out on a buff because we don't want to add an extra line to the patch notes, though.

I apologize for my insistence. I just think ports are in a really bad spot, and i don't think that the proposed changes will be enough, also considering the food discount revert which has to be compensated for in some way. The food gathering bonus is nice (personally i'd go as far as making it 8%) and the trickle is ok. Maybe even moving infantry HP to the colonial age as well and leaving infantry combat in the industrial age would be beneficial.
It's just that all these small buffs ports are receiving don't seem to stack up in a way that makes ports on par with other average civs on land maps.