[SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

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Re: [SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

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Post by Goodspeed »

amiggo1999 wrote:why sign up on a tourney when you don't intend to practice at all, but then be impossible to negotiate with on a MU?
I really don't think I was being impossible at all, rather the opposite. What makes you think I was being impossible?
As for why I signed up, I liked the league format. Thought it sounded fun. Didn't expect to get drafted though
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Re: [SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

Post by princeofcarthage »

edeholland wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:Ideally the issue of counterpicking wouldn't arise if game was balanced, cuz then all civs would be relatively similar. The MU would then be decided on players playstyle and strategy which would be ideal.
You would have the exact same issue.

How? There would be no reason to be afraid of getting counterpicked
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Re: [SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

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Post by bwinner »

deleted_user wrote:If I lost my team 5 points I'd not label it as fun.

You will know how it exactly feels soon
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Re: [SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

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Post by deleted_user0 »

Goodspeed wrote:
umeu wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Blind pick has no place in competitive AoE3. Should never be an option
forcing a mirror has no place either imo. forcing any mu tbh has no place. i'd rather be forced to lock into sioux vs india on no tp than to be forced into an india mirror.
How else do you make sure it's fair? Non-mirror suggestions are just civ counter after civ counter. And if the players refuse every remotely even match up suggested, how do you deal with that?


A mirror is just another mu tho. Weve had this discussion before. I dont see why mirrors are fairer. Its just prioritizing 1 set of skills (mechanics mainly) over another (strategy, creativity etc). Mirrors are just super restrictive and franlly boring, imo.

I already proposed a way. For example going by matches on a mu list. Or you can have the lower ranked player pick a few mus and higher ranked player chooses one from the list.

I mean nothing is perfect in the end. Alternatively you could end the last game with agreed pick, and start off with highest ranking player picking first in g1. And 2nd player in g2. Etc. Might make things worse perhaps tho.
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Re: [SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

Post by Goodspeed »

umeu wrote:A mirror is just another mu tho. Weve had this discussion before. I dont see why mirrors are fairer. Its just prioritizing 1 set of skills (mechanics mainly) over another (strategy, creativity etc). Mirrors are just super restrictive and franlly boring, imo.
A mirror is at least an inherently fair MU. It can favor the player who practiced it, but that's always the case with everything. At least it doesn't favor one side based on civ alone.
I already proposed a way. For example going by matches on a mu list.
Who makes the list?
Or you can have the lower ranked player pick a few mus and higher ranked player chooses one from the list.
I like the concept but it has its own issues. How about: One player picks a list of 3 match ups with all 6 civs being unique and the other player picks which match up and also which side he plays. This would favor the player with the bigger civ pool, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Still not ideal though, but at least it can be an alternative when players can't agree otherwise.

I thought this round robin format actually provided a unique opportunity to get rid of the need to agree on a match up entirely. You don't have to play an odd number of games, after all.
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Re: [SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

Post by deleted_user0 »

Maybe, but forcing any type of mirror isnt fair regardless. It would be fair if players can agree upon it, but so would anyother mu. If forcing mirrors become sthe standard solution, then players like h2o or other mechanically adept players could just force a mirror by default, and refuse to play any non mirror mu, just because it suits their style. That is not fairer, imo.

There are plenty of mu's people would consider counter civs to any particular civ, that I would be happy to face, rather than just play a boring mirror.

As for who makes the list, both players do. For example i suggest

Spa dut
chi fre
Sio otto
Rus chi
Jap iro

And you suggest
Fre ger
Brit dut
Iro jap
Dut por
Por sio

We check, iro jap is same. So lets play. Maybe need to choose more than 5 mu's tho. And the map needs tp be known beforehand. Its elaborate. Might not be the best way but its an idea.
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Re: [SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

Post by WickedCossack »

Goodspeed wrote:Expected a little more solidarity in the civ selection in g1 though. Here I am having played like 3 games in the last 2 years and being forced to play either an India mirror, a match up I've never liked and you undoubtedly know very well, or blind pick...


Had I known the exact situation I would have extended more selection freedom but I'm quite risk averse and without knowing if you'd been practicing during the week for the event (reasonable assumption) I went into safe mode. Especially since our team was down and the pressure was on to 5-0. Blame your reputation? ^_^

I agree with Umeu however that you shouldn't be able to force mirrors since they favour one type of player. I actually see blind pick as "fairer" in that respect. I did originally turn down the Indian mirror that was suggested since I'm not a fan of mirrors so reversing that decision was some compromise. :P

Glad you had fun though, aoe3 is fun.
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Re: [SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

Post by deleted_user0 »

Another option is random pick from a restricted 3 or 5 civ pool preselected by the players. Obviously this isn't ideal, but thats fine, as it puts more pressure on players to agree on a mu as if they don't, it'll be out of their hands.
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Re: [SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

Post by ListlessSalmon »

I was rooting for wicked after watching the picking (and whining about picking).

I feel like only really wanting a mirror for the agreed mu is "for any civ you pick I will accept precisely one matchup" and don't really see why that should get some special priority (as I believe was about to be the case here? Seemed like Ede was saying Wicked would have to pick first if something wasn't agreed- though possibly I misunderstood- edit: I glanced vod and while ede did type that it seems like it was a joke? A bit unclear but he continued to say blind pick if no decision at some point after that so seems like that wasn't the idea).

Blind pick feels fairer than that. Sure you might get randomly counterpicked, but counterpicking is already a large point of the tournament rules anyway- just in the later games of the series, and it rewards people who know more about more matchups, which is presumably the point of civ rules anyway.

If that were unpalatable could just find some measure to pick one player to get an extra counterpick in game 1 (map difference in prior series, or ep elo, or ep rated games played, or for this event teamscore or something, or whatever depending on what you want to reward).

There is kinda a problem with the current system in that it potentially allows more disagreeable players willing to sit there for ages in civ switching and punishes more agreeable people.
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Re: [SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

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Post by Cometk »

Tbf as a tournament administrator over the past year and a half I have never once had to enforce blind pick
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Re: [SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

Post by Mitoe »

Cometk wrote:Tbf as a tournament administrator over the past year and a half I have never once had to enforce blind pick

My plan vs Hazza was literally to mirror in game 1 until blind pick was forced. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective), that didn't end up happening :sad:

Blind pick I think has only been forced like 3-4 times across all tournaments in the last 4 years, I think. Most of the time--even if your intention from the beginning is to force blind pick like me--two players will find an agreeable matchup within a reasonable time frame and click into the game.
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Re: [SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

Post by gamevideo113 »

Why not give the possibility to ban civs?
E.g. P1 picks brits, then bans dutch, india and germans. P2 still has 9 civs to choose from and perhaps the chances of having a hard counterpick are lower. At least you can exclude the super bad matchups with 3 bans i think.
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Re: [SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

Post by Goodspeed »

ListlessSalmon wrote:I feel like only really wanting a mirror for the agreed mu is "for any civ you pick I will accept precisely one matchup" and don't really see why that should get some special priority (as I believe was about to be the case here? Seemed like Ede was saying Wicked would have to pick first if something wasn't agreed- though possibly I misunderstood- edit: I glanced vod and while ede did type that it seems like it was a joke? A bit unclear but he continued to say blind pick if no decision at some point after that so seems like that wasn't the idea).
Maybe Ede meant what he said but changed his mind. He was in an awkward position, too, because the rules don't sufficiently prepare casters for such a situation.

What should get priority is players who attempt to suggest fair match ups. Every match up he suggested was good for his civ. I suggested some even match ups and they weren't accepted, got no fair match ups in return, so I decided that this dance wasn't going to work and fell back on mirrors as backup. Suggesting match ups that are obviously bad for your opponent is bad faith and wasn't a game I was going to play; we can keep doing that all day but it seemed much easier and less frustrating to me to agree on a match up that is inherently fair. Of course mirrors weren't an option either so you see from my perspective I was being forced to either pick a match up that was good for my opponent, or blind pick. So I agree with your last point:
There is kinda a problem with the current system in that it potentially allows more disagreeable players willing to sit there for ages in civ switching and punishes more agreeable people.
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Re: [SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

Post by gamevideo113 »

I would have rather blind picked in G1. I’d rather take my chances than having 100% odds of playing an uncomfortable MU, regardless if mirror or not.
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Post by Goodspeed »

That was the best option but I play for fun and would rather play a fair game and very probably lose than flip a coin. Either way there's something wrong with the rules because it shouldn't be that easy to force your opponent to choose between a bad match up and blind pick.
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Re: [SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

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Goodspeed wrote:
ListlessSalmon wrote:I feel like only really wanting a mirror for the agreed mu is "for any civ you pick I will accept precisely one matchup" and don't really see why that should get some special priority (as I believe was about to be the case here? Seemed like Ede was saying Wicked would have to pick first if something wasn't agreed- though possibly I misunderstood- edit: I glanced vod and while ede did type that it seems like it was a joke? A bit unclear but he continued to say blind pick if no decision at some point after that so seems like that wasn't the idea).
Maybe Ede meant what he said but changed his mind. He was in an awkward position, too, because the rules don't sufficiently prepare casters for such a situation.

What should get priority is players who attempt to suggest fair match ups. Every match up he suggested was good for his civ. I suggested some even match ups and they weren't accepted, got no fair match ups in return, so I decided that this dance wasn't going to work and fell back on mirrors as backup. Suggesting match ups that are obviously bad for your opponent is bad faith and wasn't a game I was going to play; we can keep doing that all day but it seemed much easier and less frustrating to me to agree on a match up that is inherently fair. Of course mirrors weren't an option either so you see from my perspective I was being forced to either pick a match up that was good for my opponent, or blind pick. So I agree with your last point:
There is kinda a problem with the current system in that it potentially allows more disagreeable players willing to sit there for ages in civ switching and punishes more agreeable people.


what's fair depends on each player. Diarouga and many others would probably say that playing as sioux vs brits isn't fair. I'd disagree, I think it's a fair 50/50 mu. And I'd play it as either side, for example. So who's going to decide which mu's are fair?

Also you were both not really agreeable, so I think it's not fair to shift all the blame to wicked. You basically offered 3 mu's and then went k mirror or nothing. That said, wicked was also not really budging.

there isn't really a good solution here.
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Re: [SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

Post by Goodspeed »

umeu wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
ListlessSalmon wrote:I feel like only really wanting a mirror for the agreed mu is "for any civ you pick I will accept precisely one matchup" and don't really see why that should get some special priority (as I believe was about to be the case here? Seemed like Ede was saying Wicked would have to pick first if something wasn't agreed- though possibly I misunderstood- edit: I glanced vod and while ede did type that it seems like it was a joke? A bit unclear but he continued to say blind pick if no decision at some point after that so seems like that wasn't the idea).
Maybe Ede meant what he said but changed his mind. He was in an awkward position, too, because the rules don't sufficiently prepare casters for such a situation.

What should get priority is players who attempt to suggest fair match ups. Every match up he suggested was good for his civ. I suggested some even match ups and they weren't accepted, got no fair match ups in return, so I decided that this dance wasn't going to work and fell back on mirrors as backup. Suggesting match ups that are obviously bad for your opponent is bad faith and wasn't a game I was going to play; we can keep doing that all day but it seemed much easier and less frustrating to me to agree on a match up that is inherently fair. Of course mirrors weren't an option either so you see from my perspective I was being forced to either pick a match up that was good for my opponent, or blind pick. So I agree with your last point:
There is kinda a problem with the current system in that it potentially allows more disagreeable players willing to sit there for ages in civ switching and punishes more agreeable people.
what's fair depends on each player. Diarouga and many others would probably say that playing as sioux vs brits isn't fair. I'd disagree, I think it's a fair 50/50 mu. And I'd play it as either side, for example. So who's going to decide which mu's are fair?
Yeah it's tough. Maybe there's a predefined list somewhere, voted on by top players?
You basically offered 3 mu's and then went k mirror or nothing. That said, wicked was also not really budging.
For me it felt like I was the only one trying to find fair match ups, and I was also the only one willing to play mirrors so the ball was in his court to actually suggest something reasonable. I suppose that could be different from your perspective because you considered some of his suggested MUs to be reasonable, in which case I'm curious which ones?
there isn't really a good solution here.
Any good solution quickly becomes convoluted, yeah. But I think something does need to be done about how easy it is to force blind pick, which really should have no place in competitive AoE3. I know it's rare, but every time is one too many imo.
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Re: [SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

Post by deleted_user0 »

Goodspeed wrote:
umeu wrote:
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what's fair depends on each player. Diarouga and many others would probably say that playing as sioux vs brits isn't fair. I'd disagree, I think it's a fair 50/50 mu. And I'd play it as either side, for example. So who's going to decide which mu's are fair?
Yeah it's tough. Maybe there's a predefined list somewhere, voted on by top players?
You basically offered 3 mu's and then went k mirror or nothing. That said, wicked was also not really budging.
For me it felt like I was the only one trying to find fair match ups, and I was also the only one willing to play mirrors so the ball was in his court to actually suggest something reasonable. I suppose that could be different from your perspective because you considered some of his suggested MUs to be reasonable, in which case I'm curious which ones?
there isn't really a good solution here.
Any good solution quickly becomes convoluted, yeah. But I think something does need to be done about how easy it is to force blind pick, which really should have no place in competitive AoE3. I know it's rare, but every time is one too many imo.


idk, u came in with japan, he russia, at least that's what the stream showed when it started. You change spain, he changes india, you change japan, he changes back to russia. Then you say, best decide on mirrors. That's like 3 mu's, 2 offered by you, 1 by him. Spain is kinda a counter civ to russia, even though it's a bit less on that map, they should still do fine there. india spain and russia japan were favored for wicked's civ, but not enough to be a counter civ, imo. Sioux is a bigger counter to russia than the other mu's chosen before. So I can understand him changing, he changed to india. I would take that mu tbh. especially on that map, you can get 6 llamas basically and you can get some really good tres if you do it right, convert a blowgunner and then hunt down the 2 elephants asap. But I can see why someone not familiar with sioux would decline that mu.

you then offered brits dutch, which i would call brit favored for sure, but with 5 bank dutch, it's perhaps close enough to play. He didn't take that mu, switched to india brits. Also a mu that I think is probably quite even, but I can see why you wouldn't take it. It's always a risk. By then you're asking for mirrors again. Then we're back to india japan and russia japan. India japan is probably fair, he could've taken that. But I mean here you could've also taken differen civs, you could've picked india into russia, fre into russia, china into russia, iro into russia, aztec into russia. I mean, you guys explored a few mu's but not that many differen't civs.

So neither of you were really prepared to check out the full range to find a mu, so to say that it's just the rules and that either of you was being agreeable was far from the truth, imo.
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Re: [SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

Post by Goodspeed »

Regardless, blind pick should never be an option much less be so easily forced, whether it's one or both players that are being disagreeable.
india spain and russia japan were favored for wicked's civ, but not enough to be a counter civ, imo.
I'm out of the loop and all but afaik those are some of the hardest civ counters in the game. Spain India is playable on an ATP map but this was a no TP map with herdables, which afaik means free win for India. At least, I couldn't think of a build that would stand a chance.
Iirc there was only one reasonable offer in there and that was my Jap versus his India, which on a herdable map is probably India favored as well.
Sioux is a bigger counter to russia than the other mu's chosen before.
I would argue Russia is completely fine against Sioux on no TP, but could be wrong.
he changed to india [against your Sioux]
Maybe I underestimate Sioux on no TP but that seems tough.
you then offered brits dutch
Not a serious offer, I'll concede.
He didn't take that mu, switched to india brits. Also a mu that I think is probably quite even
:hmm: On a herdable map, plus obstacles so that there is no way to get around the agra? Great time for India.
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Re: [SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

Post by deleted_user0 »

I'm not going to argue with you. you asked for my opinion. I gave it. what you want to do with it is up to you. but it just shows that you're never going to get anywhere with "fairness" as a principle. It's simply too empty of a category. and it means something different for every player.
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Re: [SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

Post by Goodspeed »

I think you could have some degree of certainty about what a fair match up is if you have good players vote on it beforehand. As long as you have the same map first in every series in an event, you'd only need one such vote. Just have them fill out a civ counter table and take averages, select every MU that was deemed fair and have players pick from those. But yeah, convoluted.

Another thing that would be much easier to implement and would improve the situation is having the first map always be a standard TP map, making more civs viable and therefore giving players a wider range of match ups to choose from.
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Re: [SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

Post by Riotcoke »

Honestly with this rule set you could even make it a play all 6 or play all 4 so both players pick first an equal amount of times. Also another thing that I've noticed the first game in the series tends to be the dull one
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Re: [SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

Post by ListlessSalmon »

I think the "wouldn't play 12/14 mirrors" is not really the right way to look at it either. Obviously I don't know because a lack of sufficient data from the stream but it seems like Wicked rather wanted to play Russia, India or Dutch on the map, given its no TP, these are going to be (amongst the) strongest civs, so that seems not unreasonable. He was also willing to play 2/3 of those mirrors. Also the one he didn't want to play (Russia) was explicitly suggested by Goodspeed as a coinflip matchup so I don't know that holding not playing that against him is entirely reasonable.

It seems a bit unfortunate that matchups with one of those civs weren't more explored. As a viewer it seemed like this was essentially Goodspeed's fault for being in/near "only mirrors!" mode at that point. But if wicked was willing to play lots of matchups with those civs (seemed the case at least with India- only thing he explicitly didn't want there was vs Jap) then probably something reasonable could have been achieved. On those the only things (I believe) we knew was Wicked didn't want to play Russia mirror, India vs Jap, or Dutch vs Brit.

Maybe Wicked could have been more helpful with explicitly saying which of those MUs he'd play (but conservatism + the rules making this a bad gameplan- if you announce a bunch then you might end up on a worse MU than you could have gotten by being more disagreeable). But again, at this point Goodspeed was in full "I will only play mirrors but also I don't want to play mirrors of 2 of the strongest civs on this map which are also the civs you most want to play on this map" so not suggesting a bunch of plausible non-mirrors into that seems reasonably understandable. Again, seemed to me like GS was at fault here more than Wicked, though maybe the rules deserve more of the blame.

In any event, Wicked would have very probably won even if he was just made to pick first (as was the case in the 2 counterpick games) so its very unlikely to have mattered at all for the series, its just the academic point of what optimal rules are.
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Re: [SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

Post by Goodspeed »

ListlessSalmon wrote:I think the "wouldn't play 12/14 mirrors" is not really the right way to look at it either. Obviously I don't know because a lack of sufficient data from the stream but it seems like Wicked rather wanted to play Russia, India or Dutch on the map, given its no TP, these are going to be (amongst the) strongest civs, so that seems not unreasonable. He was also willing to play 2/3 of those mirrors.
A very strange point considering the map is irrelevant in a mirror? He didn't want to play mirrors period, which would have been fine if he'd at all tried to suggest fair non-mirror match ups.
It seems a bit unfortunate that matchups with one of those civs weren't more explored.
One thing you should note is that there are actually very few civs that can reasonably stand up to those 3 on a no TP map. I suggested 2 match ups that I considered even against the 3 (out of 14, mind you) civs that he insisted on playing, both were refused. From my perspective, and I'm sure many would disagree, I was not offered any fair match ups in return. And do note that there is no reason to insist on playing those 3 civs. Why not both play a TP civ? I was stuck trying to find MUs against civs that were heavily favored on the map.
As a viewer it seemed like this was essentially Goodspeed's fault for being in/near "only mirrors!" mode at that point. But if wicked was willing to play lots of matchups with those civs (seemed the case at least with India- only thing he explicitly didn't want there was vs Jap)
Enlighten me about the wide variety of civs that can stand up to India on a no TP herdable map. He certainly didn't, even though he had every opportunity to suggest fair match ups himself. I fell back on mirrors because his suggestions seemed, to me, to be quite obvious attempts to trap me into playing a bad match up. Again, I'm not a fan of mirrors either. And don't forget that I eventually agreed to play a match up that I was almost certainly going to lose for the sake of compromise. This perspective that I was somehow the one being difficult is surprising to say the least.

Why not play India vs Jap? Too fair? My feeling was that his goal going into civ selection was getting me to play a match up that was bad for me, and he succeeded in the end. While understandable, it's just not very sportsmanlike. But hey, everything to get the W, right? I guess I just don't see it that way and I think that sort of attitude so often ruins the fun. I suppose that's why I never really participated in tournaments, even 10 years ago, and always preferred unrated games. I thought this event would be relatively uncompetitive and that's one of the reasons I signed up.

But it was fun anyway so it's all good. It's just that in my opinion it showed that there's a problem with the rules.
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Re: [SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

Post by Kawapasaka »

Every game #1 of a series should be a French mirror

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