Change or remove Halberdiers

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United States of America 007Salt
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Re: Change or remove Halberdiers

Post by 007Salt »

Halbs are a great say to stop ulhan from sieging down a blockhouse.
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Great Britain chris1089
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Re: Change or remove Halberdiers

Post by chris1089 »

Makrokosmos12 wrote:
chris1089 wrote:Why though?
just read?
Why do these reasons necessitate changing the unit. Why can't a unit remain a niche unit? Also building 10 halbs in mid fortress to body block on the front with goons in the back is underrated.
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United States of America dutchdude117
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Re: Change or remove Halberdiers

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Post by dutchdude117 »

I think we should start adjusting their stats to be less of a anti cav unit and more of a general purpose body blocking meat shield.
If you really need a unit that specializes in being an infantry unit that is anti-cav, you should probably be building musketeers or pikemen anyways.

For a start I think we should bring their base line stats similar to that of a Wokou Ronin, link for details
https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Wokou_Ronin

What I am thinking:
Change to their anti cav to a 1.0 (or maybe 1.5) multiplier
Increase their base health to 240 (2 hp for every resource it cost, similar to Wokou Ronin)
alternatively we can reduce their cost from 120 (50 food 70 coin) resources to 100 (40 food 60 coin perhaps?) resources (to get a ratio of 2 hp for every resource, similar to Wokou Ronin)
Increase their melee resist (20% which is current EP value or 30%)
Increase their movement speed (4.5 speed is a must for this unit to be viable, in general I think that all melee infantry should have a minimum base speed of 4.5)

Notes:
We can safely assume that this new unit is not going to be OP because it has a very similar stat line to Wokou Ronin, which as a unit that already exist and would already be being built and abused if it were OP.
We may have to look into changing or replacing the dutch cards that affect halberdiers
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Germany Makrokosmos12
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Re: Change or remove Halberdiers

Post by Makrokosmos12 »

chris1089 wrote:
Makrokosmos12 wrote:
chris1089 wrote:Why though?
just read?
Why do these reasons necessitate changing the unit. Why can't a unit remain a niche unit? Also building 10 halbs in mid fortress to body block on the front with goons in the back is underrated.
halbs are simply are not efficient in comparison to their conterparts. Halbs get crushed by every single ranged unit coz they cant really deal damage to them while taking the full damage due to having no resistance.
Your opponent can just run away and shot them down. Also if you use them as antikav, you opponent can just dance back and fort with his cav while you struggle to get your halbs in front to protect and then move them back behind the skirms where they are save from the enemy skirmisher volleys that rain down on them while they move slowly back and forth.

You ever tried that??? You even play the game? They just sucks ass.
The only redeming thing about halbs is that they can siege better. That is it. Halbs are just bad by design, and it is not helped by the fact that their stats arent as good as they should be, like ONLY 10% melee resist for a unit which is supposed to be an improved pikeman?

There is a reasonj why people laugh in chat when they see halbs coz they became kinda of a meme of being to terrible for being used seriously.
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United States of America dutchdude117
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Re: Change or remove Halberdiers

Post by dutchdude117 »

Makrokosmos12 wrote:
chris1089 wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Why do these reasons necessitate changing the unit. Why can't a unit remain a niche unit? Also building 10 halbs in mid fortress to body block on the front with goons in the back is underrated.
halbs are simply are not efficient in comparison to their conterparts. Halbs get crushed by every single ranged unit coz they cant really deal damage to them while taking the full damage due to having no resistence.
Your opponent can just run away and shot them down. Also if you use them as antikav, you opponent can just dance back and fort with his cav while you struggle to get your halbs in front to protect and then move them back behind the skirms where they are save from the enemy skirmisher volleys that rain down on them while they move slowly back and forth.

You ever tried that??? You even play the game? They just sucks ass.
The only redeming thing about halbs is that they can siege better. That is it. Halbs are just bad by design, and it is not helped by the fact that their stats arent as good as they should be, like ONLY 10% melee resist for a unit which is supposed to be an improved pikeman?
You should know that currently in EP Halbs have 20% melee resist, a significant improvement, but still not enough
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Re: Change or remove Halberdiers

Post by chris1089 »

Makrokosmos12 wrote:
chris1089 wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Why do these reasons necessitate changing the unit. Why can't a unit remain a niche unit? Also building 10 halbs in mid fortress to body block on the front with goons in the back is underrated.
halbs are simply are not efficient in comparison to their conterparts. Halbs get crushed by every single ranged unit coz they cant really deal damage to them while taking the full damage due to having no resistance.
Your opponent can just run away and shot them down. Also if you use them as antikav, you opponent can just dance back and fort with his cav while you struggle to get your halbs in front to protect and then move them back behind the skirms where they are save from the enemy skirmisher volleys that rain down on them while they move slowly back and forth.

You ever tried that??? You even play the game? They just sucks ass.
The only redeming thing about halbs is that they can siege better. That is it. Halbs are just bad by design, and it is not helped by the fact that their stats arent as good as they should be, like ONLY 10% melee resist for a unit which is supposed to be an improved pikeman?

There is a reasonj why people laugh in chat when they see halbs coz they became kinda of a meme of being to terrible for being used seriously.
Of course I play the game. Doesn't sound like you understand how I mean to use them. You can punish that by kiting forward with skirms and halbs in cover mode so they are trading skirms for cover mode halbs.
Edit: also looks like you've only played 10 EP games in the last 2 years versus over 300 (and that's not that many even.)
Second edit: looks like you've played a fair bit on re though.
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Kiribati princeofcarthage
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Re: Change or remove Halberdiers

Post by princeofcarthage »

If enemy does cav back forth u can also do ur halbs back forth while his skirms pick of your harlbs you pick of his skirms whilst training more harlbs. 10 halbs is definitely underrated. If you really need halbs as efficient unit it should theoretically trade equally vs musketeer while also probably beating skirms in melee
Fine line to something great is a strange change.
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Germany Makrokosmos12
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Re: Change or remove Halberdiers

Post by Makrokosmos12 »

chris1089 wrote:
Makrokosmos12 wrote:
Show hidden quotes
halbs are simply are not efficient in comparison to their conterparts. Halbs get crushed by every single ranged unit coz they cant really deal damage to them while taking the full damage due to having no resistance.
Your opponent can just run away and shot them down. Also if you use them as antikav, you opponent can just dance back and fort with his cav while you struggle to get your halbs in front to protect and then move them back behind the skirms where they are save from the enemy skirmisher volleys that rain down on them while they move slowly back and forth.

You ever tried that??? You even play the game? They just sucks ass.
The only redeming thing about halbs is that they can siege better. That is it. Halbs are just bad by design, and it is not helped by the fact that their stats arent as good as they should be, like ONLY 10% melee resist for a unit which is supposed to be an improved pikeman?

There is a reasonj why people laugh in chat when they see halbs coz they became kinda of a meme of being to terrible for being used seriously.
Of course I play the game. Doesn't sound like you understand how I mean to use them. You can punish that by kiting forward with skirms and halbs in cover mode so they are trading skirms for cover mode halbs.
Edit: also looks like you've only played 10 EP games in the last 2 years versus over 300 (and that's not that many even.)
Second edit: looks like you've played a fair bit on re though.
Your suggestion about cover mode with halbs doesnt work in practice!
When i put them in cover mode, the opponent would move his cav away from the covermode halbs, to a place where you dont have halbs and the proceeds to hack down your skirms, also melee units like halbs do only half damage while in covermode, also not good. And you have to micro the cover mode to put them in and out of covermode wile making sure your skirms not shoot the cav.

So cover rarely works and is highly unpractiacal. Its so much easier to have ruyters or dragoon in the back somewhat safely behind your skirms, constantly shooting at incomming cav.
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Germany aligator92
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Re: Change or remove Halberdiers

Post by aligator92 »

I think they outperform Ruyters when defending cannons and against Sioux who usually have less of a Skirm presence and no option to go for artillery

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