EP 5.0.x Beta [RELEASED-LIVE]

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Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
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EP 5.0.x Beta [RELEASED-LIVE]

Post by EAGLEMUT »

See the EP Beta FAQ for general information about EP Beta and details on how to participate.

EP5 is now released live! Nothing to test at this time.

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EP 5.0.0.0 Beta5 [2018-05-27]
combined changelog since EP 4.2.1.1

ESOC Patch changes
- Added UHC Plugin support (see explanation below).
- Changed default diplomacy stance to Enemy in diplomacy mode.
- The "Sandbox" difficulty setting has been renamed to "Observer Mode / Sandbox".
- Polished Diplomacy UI (both window and button).
- KotH timer set to 10 minutes, regardless of player count (was problematic with spectators).

ESOC Patch bug fixes & ESOC Treaty Patch bug fixes
- EP/ETP: Increased minimum orchard distance from TC by 2 (now same as on RE).
- EP/ETP: Fixed Tomahawk ability to build after sending Battlefield Construction.
- ETP: Fixed Iroquois War Hut BB Lacrosse to increase the range of Tomahawks.
- EP: Monitor XP bounties reduced from 100 to 80.
- EP: Fixed the rescued native eagle warrior to have proper attack tactics.
- EP: Added +4 LOS to Travois builder in order to allow dock placement.

ESOC Treaty Patch map changes
- Added minimap thumbnail images for all special Treaty Patch maps.
- Added latest UI Blitz maps.

ESOC Patch map changes
- ESOC Colorado player spawn locations and terrain adjusted.
- ESOC Bonnie Springs now always spawns the version with small neutral town in its center. Revised number of hunts and trees on the map.
- Fixed ESOC Gran Chaco minimap thumbnail image.
- Converted all EP ESOC maps to UIx.
- The ESOC Maps mapset is now safe to play in Observer Mode.
- Added fallbacks for maps with special features incompatible with non-ESOC environment (ESOC Iowa trees, ESOC Malaysia trees, ESOC Wadmalaw trees & treasureset & water).
- ESOC Bonnie Springs is now functional on RE if both players have EP installed.
- ESOC Bonnie Springs is now functional in any common non-ESOC environment if both players have the ESOC Map Pack installed for their game version.
- All ESOC maps extensively rebalanced for KotH game mode, details described in an extra section.

ESOC Map Pack installer
- Implemented new map pack installer from scratch.
- Automatically generated with EP release, therefore contains latest map versions.
- Includes automatically generated UI and non-UI versions of all UIx maps for use in non-ESOC environment.
- Includes all special maps of ESOC Treaty Patch.
- Customizable installation destinations for maximum compatibility with other game patches (defaults to RE TAD).
- Beta map pack installer available here: https://eso-community.net/assets/patch/files/ESOC%20Map%20Pack%20Installer.exe.

ESOC Patch installer
- Now automatically installs generated UI and non-UI versions of all UIx maps for use on RE TAD.

ESOC Patch Launcher
- All custom maps on RE which were generated from UIx are now validated upon launch and replaced with latest version in case they are found to be corrupted/outdated.
- As custom UI maps generated from UIx are always prepended with "UI 2.2 ", all outdated special versions of those UI maps such as 2.2c/2.2a are automatically erased from custom maps.
- Implemented new launcher icon.

ESOC Network Hook
- Fixed an issue causing excessive CPU usage.

EP Anti-cheat
- Added detection of a hack involving market trade.
- Protect UHC plugin files from external modifications and disallow external plugins.

ESOC Patch balance changes

General
- "Schooners" shipment: Fishing Boat train-time reduction increased to 40% (up from 20%)

British
- Manor cost increased to 140w (up from 135w; bounties recalculated accordingly)

Chinese
- “Old Han Reforms” shipment improved to 50% Old Han banner-army attack & hitpoints and a 20% unit cost-increase (down from 25% cost-increase)

Dutch
- Bank cost reverted to 350f-350w (up from 300f-350w), XP bounties recalculated accordingly to 140/280

Germans
- "Lipizzaner Cavalry" shipment increased to +25% Uhlan attack & hitpoints (up from 15%)

Indians
- House cost increased to 60w (up from 50w); Bounties recalculated accordingly
- Sowar cost reverted to 80f-80c (up from 75f-75c); Bounties recalculated accordingly

Iroquois
- “Crates of 100 Food, 100 Wood, and 100 Coin" INFINITE shipment increased to 200f, 100w, 100c
- "Crates of 200 Food, 200 Wood, and 200 Coin" shipment increased to 400f, 200w, 200c

Japanese
- Shogun Tokugawa hitpoints-aura decreased to +10% (down from 20%)
- “Way of the Bow” shipment reverted to +2 Yumi range and +15% hitpoints (up from +2 Yumi range)

Sioux
- War Chief “heavy cavalry” unit-tag added
- Teepee gather-rate aura reduced to 3% (down from 4%)
- Teepee hitpoints decreased to 600 (down from 800)
- Teepee attack and hitpoints auras range reduced to 18 (down from 24)
- Teepee minimum placement-range reverted (removed)
- “Aggressive Policy” shipment now sets gather-rate aura to 5% (down from 6%)
- “Mustangs” shipment reverted to -10% cavalry cost (down from 15%)

Image

EP 5.0.0.0 Beta5 [2018-05-27]
changelog since EP 5.0.0.0 Beta4

ESOC Treaty Patch map changes
- added latest UI Blitz maps

ESOC Patch map changes
- all remaining ESOC maps on EP converted to UIx and cured of all debugger errors
- the ESOC Maps mapset is now safe to play in Observer Mode
- added fallbacks for maps with special features incompatible with non-ESOC environment (ESOC Iowa trees, ESOC Malaysia trees, ESOC Wadmalaw trees & treasureset & water)
- ESOC Bonnie Springs is now functional on RE if both players have EP installed
- ESOC Bonnie Springs is now functional in any common non-ESOC environment if both players have the ESOC Map Pack installed for their game version
- all ESOC maps extensively rebalanced for KotH game mode, details described in an extra section

ESOC Map Pack installer
- implemented new map pack installer from scratch
- automatically generated with EP release, therefore contains latest map versions
- includes automatically generated UI and non-UI versions of all UIx maps for use in non-ESOC environment
- includes all special maps of ESOC Treaty Patch
- customizable installation destinations for maximum compatibility with other game patches (defaults to RE TAD)
- beta map pack installer available here: https://eso-community.net/assets/patch/files/ESOC%20Map%20Pack%20Installer.exe

ESOC Patch installer
- now automatically installs generated UI and non-UI versions of all UIx maps for use on RE TAD

ESOC Patch Launcher
- all custom maps on RE which were generated from UIx are now validated upon launch and replaced with latest version in case they are found to be corrupted/outdated
- as custom UI maps generated from UIx are always prepended with "UI 2.2 ", all outdated special versions of those UI maps such as 2.2c/2.2a are automatically erased from custom maps
- implemented new launcher icon

ESOC Network Hook
- fixed an issue causing excessive CPU usage

ESOC Patch
- polished Diplomacy UI (both window and button)
- KotH timer set to 10 minutes, regardless of player count (was problematic with spectators)

KotH rebalance on EP ESOC maps



UIx ESOC Adirondacks:
- much more consistently balanced KotH spawn
- added two more possible spawn locations (in 1v1 only)

UIx ESOC Alaska
- much more consistently balanced KotH spawn

UIx ESOC Arizona
- rebalanced KotH spawn along with center mesa size
- King's Hill now spawns between two mesas in 1v1
- trade route now always spawns in circle variation during KotH

UIx ESOC Arkansas
- much more consistently balanced KotH spawn
- added a second possible spawn location

UIx ESOC Baja California
- rebalanced KotH spawn
- trade route now always spawns in horizonal variation during KotH, slightly adjusted to avoid fort

UIx ESOC Bengal
- spawn more ground around King's Hill for easier placement

UIx ESOC Bonnie Springs
- much more consistently balanced KotH spawn

UIx ESOC Cascade Range
- much more consistently balanced KotH spawn

UIx ESOC Colorado
- much more consistently balanced KotH spawn
- adjusted trade route to not obstruct King's Hill in KotH mode

UIx ESOC Fertile Crescent
- much more consistently balanced KotH spawn

UIx ESOC Florida
- much more consistently balanced KotH spawn
- added two more possible spawn locations; swamp or water

UIx ESOC Gran Chaco
- much more consistently balanced KotH spawn
- added two more possible KotH spawn locations (in 1v1 only)

UIx ESOC Great Basin
- KotH center spawn removed
- added possible KotH spawn locations on either side (1v1 or team only)
- added fixed eastern KotH spawn in FFA (3+ teams)

UIx ESOC Herald Island
- much more consistently balanced KotH spawn
- added one more possible KotH spawn location

UIx ESOC High Plains
- much more consistently balanced KotH spawn
- added two more possible spawn locations
- always set trade route to FFA variation in KotH mode

UIx ESOC Hudson Bay
- much more consistently balanced KotH spawn
- added possible southern spawn location, only possible in trade route variation which doesn't obstruct it
- added possible bay spawn location
- center spawn location now only possible in FFA games (3+ teams)

UIx ESOC Indonesia
- much more consistently balanced KotH spawn

UIx ESOC Iowa
- much more consistently balanced KotH spawn
- adjusted trade route line and center socket in KotH mode to allow space for King's Hill

UIx ESOC Jebel Musa
- much more consistently balanced KotH spawn

UIx ESOC Kamchatka
- much more consistently balanced KotH spawn
- added one more possible spawn location (in 1v1 only)

UIx ESOC Klondike
- reworked KotH spawn, now always on western platform

UIx ESOC Malaysia
- much more consistently balanced KotH spawn (may clip with trade route though)

UIx ESOC Manchac
- much more consistently balanced KotH spawn

UIx ESOC Manchuria
- much more consistently balanced KotH spawn
- added two more possible spawn locations

UIx ESOC Mendocino
- much more consistently balanced KotH spawn
- adjusted central mine location in KotH mode

UIx ESOC Pampas Sierras
- much more consistently balanced KotH spawn

UIx ESOC Parallel Rivers
- KotH spawn now always far north

UIx ESOC Tassili
- much more consistently balanced KotH spawn

UIx ESOC Thar Desert
- much more consistently balanced KotH spawn
- central natives not guaranteed to spawn in KotH mode

UIx ESOC Tibet
- much more consistently balanced KotH spawn

UIx ESOC Wadmalaw
- reworked KotH spawn location onto water


Image

EP 5.0.0.0 Beta4 [2018-05-19]

First off, what's the UHC? UHC is a community project by kangcliff and danielpereira, aiming to "unhardcode" parts of the AoE3 engine, make more things configurable than what has ever been possible before, add new features to the engine, fix bugs, that sort of stuff: https://github.com/danielpereira/AoE3UnHardcoded
In the past, we've collaborated with UHC when they made the extended teams patch, which is included in current EP. However, UHC opens up many more possibilities than just that, and it is time we take advantage of them. Now, let's take a look at what those possibilities are.


UHC Plugin system
Through the UHC Plugin system, we gain access to an environment where the entire set of AoE3 engine functions is available to utilize for either creating new functionalities, or exporting existing functionalities into a scope where they were not available before.

What does exporting functionalities mean exactly? Well, the way it works there are different sets of functions for various scopes of the game such as UI design scope, AI design scope, map generation scope and so on. With UHC we can easily export functions from one scope to another where such functionality was previously missing and impossible to replicate. First area we plan to utilize this for is improving the way Observer UI maps work as well as the Observer UI itself.

Custom cheat codes
One feature of the plugin system is the option to easily implement new cheat codes into the game. At first, this might not sound very useful; aren't we trying to block cheats, after all? Well, here we're talking about "regular" cheats which can only be used in singleplayer or when they are specifically allowed in the multiplayer room, just like the other built-in ones; "x marks the spot" and so on.
What does this bring to the table:
- just giving more fun things to the players
- we can create cheats that help speed up development and testing of maps or game changes
- we can utilize this in certain competitions and have "design your own cheat code" be amongst the prizes, or perhaps have small competitions entirely centered around designing the most fun new cheat code

UIx map project
Saving the best for last, something I'm personally most excited about; I call it the "UIx map project". The idea here is to overhaul how we handle Observer UI maps in a big way. On the ESOC Patch, all maps are to be progressively converted into "UIx" maps which support both observer mode and regular play. These will be included in the "official" dropdown list of preinstalled maps on EP and functionally replace both the previous version of a map on this list (ex. ESOC Arkansas) as well as the custom UI map version which is currently downloaded separately as a custom map (ex. UI 2.2c ESOC Arkansas). On a UIx map, observer mode will be activated by selecting "Sandbox" difficulty when hosting a game room (Sandbox will also be renamed on EP to make this clearer). Other than this, the observer mode works the same way as before by selecting FFA for 1v1 matches and so on.

As the UIx maps use features implemented through UHC plugin system, manually copying them as-is onto official RE patch will not be possible (map will crash on load). For usage of ESOC maps on non-ESOC patches, we will continue to generate hardcoded versions of the maps with observer mode permanently disabled (ex. ESOC Arkansas) and permanently enabled (ex. UI 2.2 ESOC Arkansas).

Why are we doing this at all, what are the benefits?
- The custom map system is extremely clunky to use during ESOC competitions, causing massive delays and headaches to both participants and admins due to all players needing to obtain the same version of the map. The p2p system of sharing custom maps on ESO is often slow or outright bugs out and requires players to jump through hoops to get the correct map version.
- All changes to map scripts essentially need to be implemented twice with the old system, which often causes inconsistency when UI map version is ahead of non-UI version or the opposite. This is both causing confusion to the players and requires more work from the devs/mapmakers.
- Using the custom map system at all opens up ESOC competitions to additional security vulnerabilities.
- Once finished, this change will allow players to utilize mapsets for play on randomized maps in Observer UI mode.
- It will be easier to implement special non-RE-compatible features on maps and add fallbacks for them (ex. custom trees on ESOC Iowa).

That's it for the intro, now for where we are in terms of actual progress:

UHC Plugin progress
- kangcliff of UHC team patched EP to add support of the UHC Plugin system, along with providing a special UHC version that is compatible with EP's modified executables
- ESOC's own UHC Plugin is prepared with the changes needed for UIx maps, changes for Aizamk to implement new UI features, as well as the following newly implemented cheat codes:
[spoiler=name spoilers only]cowhax
this is a complication
kill 'em all
fear the elifents
it's raining men
dev
devx
devr[/spoiler]
[spoiler=name and effect spoilers]cowhax (turn enemy villagers into cows)
this is a complication (gain 100 shipments)
kill 'em all (spawn 50 heavy cannons)
fear the elifents (spawn 10 of each mansabdar elephant)
it's raining men (spawn 20 cdbs and a rain effect)
dev (it's raining men + this is a complication + 10k of each resource + fog & blackmap off + x100 research rate)
devx (dev + x100 handicap + x100 train rate)
devr (reset research/train rates to normal, reset handicap to none, reactivate fog & blackmap)[/spoiler]

UIx progress
The process of converting maps to UIx entails essentially merging the old UI version with the non-UI version and wrapping UI-specific code in conditional statements. I've also been checking each map for runtime errors using the RMS debugger and fixing those - this should cause smoother map loading and prevent some random bugs in how the maps spawn. The merging will notably enable KotH functionality in observer mode on maps where that change was not yet ported to UI version before.

List of converted maps:
UIx ESOC Arkansas
UIx ESOC Kamchatka
UIx ESOC Hudson Bay
UIx ESOC Gran Chaco
UIx ESOC Tibet
UIx ESOC Manchuria


changelog since EP 5.0.0.0 Beta2

ESOC Patch
- Added UHC Plugin support (see explanation above).
- Changed default diplomacy stance to Enemy in diplomacy mode.
- The "Sandbox" difficulty setting has been renamed to "Observer Mode / Sandbox".

ESOC Patch map changes
- Fixed gaia unit selection bug on ESOC Bonnie Springs.
- Fixed ESOC Gran Chaco minimap thumbnail image.
- Converted the following maps to UIx (see explanation above): ESOC Arkansas, ESOC Kamchatka, ESOC Hudson Bay, ESOC Gran Chaco, ESOC Tibet, ESOC Manchuria

ESOC Treaty Patch map changes
- Added minimap thumbnail images for all special Treaty Patch maps.

Anti-cheat
- Protect UHC plugin files from external modifications and disallow external plugins.

Image

EP 5.0.0.0 Beta2 [2018-05-08] (no changes in Beta3, only rebuilt patch)
changelog since EP 5.0.0.0 Beta1

ESOC Patch
- EP: bank XP bounties recalculated to 140/280.
- EP: added +4 LOS to Travois builder in order to allow dock placement.

Image

EP 5.0.0.0 Beta1 [2018-05-07]
changelog since EP 4.2.1.1

ESOC Patch bug fixes & ESOC Treaty Patch bug fixes
- EP/ETP: Increased minimum orchard distance from TC by 2 (now same as on RE).
- EP/ETP: Fixed Tomahawk ability to build after sending Battlefield Construction.
- ETP: Fixed Iroquois War Hut BB Lacrosse to increase the range of Tomahawks.
- EP: Monitor XP bounties reduced from 100 to 80.
- EP: Fixed the rescued native eagle warrior to have proper attack tactics.

ESOC Patch map changes
- ESOC Colorado player spawn locations and terrain adjusted.
- ESOC Bonnie Springs now always spawns the version with small neutral town in its center. Revised number of hunts and trees on the map.

EP Anti-cheat
- Added detection of a hack involving market trade.

ESOC Patch balance changes

General
- "Schooners" shipment: Fishing Boat train-time reduction increased to 40% (up from 20%)

British
- Manor cost increased to 140w (up from 135w; bounties recalculated accordingly)

Chinese
- “Old Han Reforms” shipment improved to 50% Old Han banner-army attack & hitpoints and a 20% unit cost-increase (down from 25% cost-increase)

Dutch
- Bank cost reverted to 350f-350w (up from 300f-350w)

Germans
- "Lipizzaner Cavalry" shipment increased to +25% Uhlan attack & hitpoints (up from 15%)

Indians
- House cost increased to 60w (up from 50w); Bounties recalculated accordingly
- Sowar cost reverted to 80f-80c (up from 75f-75c); Bounties recalculated accordingly

Iroquois
- “Crates of 100 Food, 100 Wood, and 100 Coin" INFINITE shipment increased to 200f, 100w, 100c
- "Crates of 200 Food, 200 Wood, and 200 Coin" shipment increased to 400f, 200w, 200c

Japanese
- Shogun Tokugawa hitpoints-aura decreased to +10% (down from 20%)
- “Way of the Bow” shipment reverted to +2 Yumi range and +15% hitpoints (up from +2 Yumi range)

Sioux
- War Chief “heavy cavalry” unit-tag added
- Teepee gather-rate aura reduced to 3% (down from 4%)
- Teepee hitpoints decreased to 600 (down from 800)
- Teepee attack and hitpoints auras range reduced to 18 (down from 24)
- Teepee minimum placement-range reverted (removed)
- “Aggressive Policy” shipment now sets gather-rate aura to 5% (down from 6%)
- “Mustangs” shipment reverted to -10% cavalry cost (down from 15%)
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Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
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Re: EP 5.0.x Beta [2018-05-07]

Post by EAGLEMUT »

-- RESERVED --
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momuuu wrote: theres no way eaglemut is truly a top player
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Re: EP 5.0.x Beta [2018-05-07]

Post by Atomiswave »

Again no changes to Russia, I am baffled....
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Re: EP 5.0.x Beta [2018-05-07]

Post by momuuu »

Finally changes to british.

Nice to see a good amount of random game design-altering changes into the mix too. Still refusing to remove dutch's 5th bank for arbitrary reasons.
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Re: EP 5.0.x Beta [2018-05-07]

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Atomiswave wrote:Again no changes to Russia, I am baffled....

They're ok.
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Re: EP 5.0.x Beta [2018-05-07]

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

momuuu wrote:Finally changes to british.

Nice to see a good amount of random game design-altering changes into the mix too. Still refusing to remove dutch's 5th bank for arbitrary reasons.

Dutch eco is just bad without the 5th bank.
We're hopping that the cost change will make Dutch slower, whithout affecting their booming potential.
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Re: EP 5.0.x Beta [2018-05-07]

Post by Hazza54321 »

step in the right direction
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Re: EP 5.0.x Beta [2018-05-07]

Post by Garja »

One foot in the right direction one foot to the opposite way.
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Re: EP 5.0.x Beta [2018-05-07]

Post by tedere12 »

Im pleased with these changes. Still would like to see the russian vill batch cost 255f.
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Re: EP 5.0.x Beta [2018-05-07]

Post by zoom »

momuuu wrote:Finally changes to british.

Nice to see a good amount of random game design-altering changes into the mix too. Still refusing to remove dutch's 5th bank for arbitrary reasons.
What are you talking about, now?

Also, Goodspeed gives his regards:

Goodspeed wrote:
Garja wrote:Why? Because you're too lazy to reread my post and interpret it?
Remove 5th bank, buff vill card. It's that simple. Since "someone" wants Dutch to have more eco than just 4 bank and a 4v card.
Yes they need it because the changes in the meta, most importantly the rise of the TP, have allowed for other civs to make more eco investments. Dutch, being unable to contest a TP line, has lagged behind. Without the 5 bank limit, Dutch's advantage in the mid game is effectively gone because their eco is no longer ahead. French used to be afraid of Dutch's 4 bank eco. Now they match it on TP maps.

If Dutch are too strong, which it looks like they are, the best way to fix that is by nerfing banks (in this case simply reverting the cost decrease), not by reducing the limit. It should be obvious to anyone that there's a problem if Dutch are booming to the same (max) number of banks every single game (goodbye build diversity) and still losing, which is the case on RE.
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Re: EP 5.0.x Beta [2018-05-07]

Post by zoom »

Atomiswave wrote:Again no changes to Russia, I am baffled....
tedere12 wrote:Im pleased with these changes. Still would like to see the russian vill batch cost 255f.
Buffing Russians was considered, but eventually decided against, chiefly on two grounds:

1. The civilization's previous overperformance, with the buff.
2. The nerfs made to many other civilizations, on EP as a whole.
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Re: EP 5.0.x Beta [2018-05-07]

Post by pecelot »

@ypUnitDiscipleAura will not be happy about thish
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Re: EP 5.0.x Beta [2018-05-07]

Post by gamevideo113 »

Is it just me or is the OHR change actually worthless?
Interesting changes for iro, questionable changes for sioux. Sioux is being changed too much imo. The other changes seem quite good. Overall i'm happy with what i see :)
[Some people aspire to be pr30+, some people aspire to have fun, and some people aspire to play 3v3 Deccan.] - vividlyplain - 2019 Who (nationality) rape ?
stupid logic. noob players can say op?
toxic, Insult, Racism ?
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Re: EP 5.0.x Beta [2018-05-07]

Post by lemmings121 »

teepee is aoe's terran bunker.

increase 1%, decrease 1%, increase 10hp, reduce 8hp,
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Re: EP 5.0.x Beta [2018-05-07]

Post by zoom »

gamevideo113 wrote:Is it just me or is the OHR change actually worthless?
Interesting changes for iro, questionable changes for sioux. Sioux is being changed too much imo. The other changes seem quite good. Overall i'm happy with what i see :)
It's slight. It only warrants a slight buff, so it makes but slight sense.

Sioux changes are largely reverting from patch 4.2 to 4.0, with a couple of changes built on that, since as you may remember Sioux is considered problematic on 4.0.
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Re: EP 5.0.x Beta [2018-05-07]

Post by deleted_user »

momuuu wrote:Finally changes to british.

Nice to see a good amount of random game design-altering changes into the mix too. Still refusing to remove dutch's 5th bank for arbitrary reasons.

Arbitrary! Surely!
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Re: EP 5.0.x Beta [2018-05-07]

Post by Goodspeed »

Yeah we rolled a die and it came up 5. Just be glad it wasn't 1 @momuuu
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Re: EP 5.0.x Beta [2018-05-07]

Post by zoom »

de_stroyed
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Re: EP 5.0.x Beta [2018-05-07]

Post by Goodspeed »

gamevideo113 wrote:Sioux is being changed too much imo.
It's true. This is due to the big changes we made and the lack of testing. Each iteration we are mostly guessing where they will end up on the balance scale. So far we haven't gotten them quite right yet. But we'll get there.

Thanks again @EAGLEMUT for implementing the changes :flowers:
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Re: EP 5.0.x Beta [2018-05-07]

Post by Atomiswave »

zoom wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:Again no changes to Russia, I am baffled....
tedere12 wrote:Im pleased with these changes. Still would like to see the russian vill batch cost 255f.
Buffing Russians was considered, but eventually decided against, chiefly on two grounds:

1. The civilization's previous overperformance, with the buff.
2. The nerfs made to many other civilizations, on EP as a whole.


255 f vills wasn't the only buff suggested in Russian thread. Most ppl agreed on buffing BH pop, its good change with small impact.
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Re: EP 5.0.x Beta [2018-05-07]

Post by zoom »

I know I agreed on it. Still, the facts I shared with you remain, and they are valid points.

I'm sure the civilization will be buffed in the future, if it is deemed desirable.
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Re: EP 5.0.x Beta [2018-05-07]

Post by Goodspeed »

Thing is 255f vills is a very small change. If it took that little to push Russia over the edge, then they must already be competitive. Or, at least, competitive enough to not receive a buff considering other civs got nerfed.
Notice that the only real buff here is Iro, and that is because they have been a very rare sight in tournaments for a long time now. Russia is simply not on the same level of irrelevance. They are often picked and their win rate is high, despite their alleged weakness. They also have it going for them that they are strong on a good number of (lower resource/non-TP) maps, so they can be a little weaker and we will still see them played.

But I'm not ruling out a buff in the future. We just barely decided against it this time around.
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Re: EP 5.0.x Beta [2018-05-07]

Post by zoom »

I wonder how small of a change +5 Blockhouse population is. I'd guess about half as big as -15f Settler batch cost.
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Re: EP 5.0.x Beta [2018-05-07]

Post by Hazza54321 »

let russia overpop like china and be done with it
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Re: EP 5.0.x Beta [2018-05-07]

Post by Garja »

Goodspeed wrote:Thing is 255f vills is a very small change. If it took that little to push Russia over the edge, then they must already be competitive. Or, at least, competitive enough to not receive a buff considering other civs got nerfed.
Notice that the only real buff here is Iro, and that is because they have been a very rare sight in tournaments for a long time now. Russia is simply not on the same level of irrelevance. They are often picked and their win rate is high, despite their alleged weakness. They also have it going for them that they are strong on a good number of (lower resource/non-TP) maps, so they can be a little weaker and we will still see them played.

But I'm not ruling out a buff in the future. We just barely decided against it this time around.

Well, this is sort of popularity approach. There is no prove that Russia was over the edge just like there is no proof that Iro are weak. In fact Iro are probably slightly better than Russia at the moment (maybe besides the direct MU idk, needs more testing).
The fact that they're not played a lot shouldn't mean jack shit. That's totally up to players' preference. With that said, the buff they received is really just a placebo. 400f 200w 200g is hardly usable in any circumstance even with a good imagination. It won't replace any of 600w 5v or 600g in any sorto fo build (colo or FF) and it's inferior in pracical terms to any unit shipment. And then as a 7th choice or so in colonial you just send an upgrade or in any case want the slot saved for an upgrade in case you need it.

zoom wrote:I wonder how small of a change +5 Blockhouse population is. I'd guess about half as big as -15f Settler batch cost.

Trifling from a balance point (will have max 2 BHs in 15 min of 1v1 game) and also ugly from design point (5 pop relates to the 250w cost, 10 pop is the same the value of a house which is 100w).
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