Treasures

So?

Poll ended at 18 Jun 2018, 22:18

Status quo
19
53%
Removed
2
6%
Reformed
15
42%
 
Total votes: 36

Germany lordraphael
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Re: Treasures

Post by lordraphael »

umeu wrote:i don't agree with that. age 1 can make or break some civs or mu's. Play otto vs spain, and a good spain player will hunt down your hero asap, on many maps while ur building ur tp, youre gonna lose your hero just after the tp goes up. That means otto can't get more tp's effectively until a few mins into age2. If spain gets one or 2 nat tres, that also means no forward base is possible any more. In some cases you can deny russia or even iro forward bases in the same way. When playing sioux vs iro for example, age1 makes or breaks that mu, or atleast it did on nilla. Where sioux just wanted to get those op tres, preferably renegado or otherwise pistoleros or pirates, and hunt down that age2 travois asap. denying fb or potentially even killing the travois. A good iro player would know this, and try to build their own age1 tres and deny sioux from doing this.

You can severely delay an agra if you do it properly, and in some cases even deny it from going up mid map depending on size/layout of the map. Playing vs japan as well, as TWC civs, getting those renegadoes and hunting the jap heros, that's an artform, and it can be so huge if not countered properly by the jap player.

Not to mention when playing vs atp civs, getting nats just means vils can't safely build tps, and if you hunt down the explorer as well, you just deny atp entirely. On a further note, even MM in age1 is way underused from a strategic perspective, as well as strategic backherding, because it's considered lame. But in fact it's actually very smart play. And ofc its lame lol. But who cares. And tres help there as well. Getting that 150 coin for mm in tres, that's really big. And then just use it to deny blockhouses, travois or even atp.

Thats true but anyone above pr 25 can do that. Its really not hard to pull it off. All you need for it to make it happen is the awareness that this can be done in age 1.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: Treasures

Post by tabben »

deleted_user wrote:Really unlikely =/= impossible and one example =/= sufficient evidence

Besides, you're a major, not a captain :flowers:

It was really unlikely to break even, hence beating someone must come close to impossible. Maybe if you focused less on shitposting you woudn't fail to see the point. I was comparing capt vs. colonel but the gap is even bigger between me and rapha, which just supports my point that lower ranked players surely can beat those of higher rank in age 1. Are you finished wasting my time?
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Re: Treasures

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Post by lordraphael »

Mitoe wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:I totally agree with Raph. In aoe3 a captain can just match a top player's age 1 most of the time, while in AOC a top player would just win the game in age 1 vs a 2000 elo guy.

There's no way a Captain actually matches a top player in age 1 "most of the time." Maybe you just play a lot of civs that are weaker than many of the other civs in age 1?

@lordraphael Can you just decide whether you like or hate the game? I don't think I've ever seen you say anything good about the game; why do you even play?

i love this game but it just has big flaws that prevented it from being succesful and anyone who denies it doesnt know anything. Biggest flaw is that its simply to easy and a boring age 1 definitly contributed to it. Also is it ESOC policy now that you have to say sth good about aoe 3 ?
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Italy Garja
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Re: Treasures

Post by Garja »

Please define better treasure spawn :hmm:
With examples possibly.
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Re: Treasures

Post by Mitoe »

Maybe I should clarify a little bit; I'm talking mostly about mirrors, I guess. There are certain matchups where even a top player may struggle to break even in age 1. Depending on your civ you might have a significant advantage over your opponent:

S Tier: Sioux
Strong: China, French (RE), Spain
Average: French (EP), Aztec, Iroquois, Japan
Below Average: India?
Weak: German, Port, Brit, Otto, Russia

If I'm playing German vs Sioux, for example, it's pretty unlikely that I'll win age 1. The Sioux Warchief just has too many advantages with the speed and convert, that there's very little I can do to stop them from gaining an advantage, especially if I have to stop to build a trading post at the beginning of the game, which Sioux is pretty unlikely to do. However, I still feel like I may not fall behind vs Sioux if I'm playing against a major or lower, and if I'm mirroring Sioux, then I don't really see myself falling behind at all.

In a mirror or vs a civ of the same tier, or even a tier higher, I don't really see myself losing to a Captain.

@tabben, something you have to realize as well in your game vs Raphael, yes you came out ahead, but he was playing the early game very greedy in a matchup that's unfavourable for him. If you watch any top player play India in a tournament setting, it's unlikely that they separate their monks too much, as it weakens yourself even more than you already are. Separating your monks reduces the strength of treasures you can take, and any treasure is going to cost you a lot of hp, and your other monk isn't going to be around to heal after those treasures or pull you out of snare or anything like that.

Basically Raphael played age 1 carelessly that game because he didn't respect you and felt he could get away with it. If he was trying, it's pretty unlikely that you would kill either of those monks.

@lordraphael I think the biggest flaw was the way the homecity leveling system was handled in multiplayer. Done differently, the game may have been far more successful. No, age 1 isn't perfect, but I really doubt that it plays a significant part in the game's unpopularity with other RTS players.

I also kind of doubt you would find the game so "easy" if there were significantly more players of similar skill to yourself. Perhaps it's not on the same level mechanically as AoC or SC2, but it's definitely a lot harder than any modern game these days.
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Re: Treasures

Post by Warno »

Giving nat treasures a really bad multiplier vs villagers would be nice to see, other than that treasures are fine IMO.


Mitoe wrote:I think the biggest flaw was the way the homecity leveling system was handled in multiplayer. Done differently, the game may have been far more successful. No, age 1 isn't perfect, but I really doubt that it plays a significant part in the game's unpopularity with other RTS players.


Interesting, what do you think could have been done better?
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Re: Treasures

Post by Mitoe »

Not have homecity levels.
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Italy Garja
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Re: Treasures

Post by Garja »

No unit shipments but only upgrades and maybe crates or vills.
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Re: Treasures

Post by Mitoe »

That... sounds extreme.
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Re: Treasures

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Post by Hazza54321 »

unit shipments make the game interesting lol
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Re: Treasures

Post by Rikikipu »

I can't imagine this game without Kickass sending 3 huss first
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Re: Treasures

Post by gibson »

If youā€™re gonna remove unit shipments may as well just remove shipments as a whole lol
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Re: Treasures

Post by Garja »

Well kinda. Point is unit shipments popping out of nowhere is a very non competitive mechanic in a RTS. Not just because they can "randomly" change the tide of a battle and decide a game but also because and most importantly they simplify the macro. It's basically the main argument by RTS purists.
Upgrades on the other hand just make up for the lack of them in the arsenal or church or w/e other building.
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Re: Treasures

Post by WickedCossack »

Eh I'd reckon 30-40% of games vs captains are effectively over before anyone's even reached colonial.

Would disagree there's little difference.
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Re: Treasures

Post by gibson »

Well 90% of games with a pr 35 vs a captain are over when both players click ready.
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Re: Treasures

Post by Mitoe »

Removing unit shipments would be pretty bad. Itā€™s not random, and you know this, Garja. Thereā€™s not really anything uncompetitive about it.

It's only uncompetitive if a shipment is of vastly greater value than comparable shipments within that age, which, most of the time, they aren't.
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Re: Treasures

Post by deleted_user »

I voted status quo, reforming my previous view that nat treasures are too OP.
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Re: Treasures

Post by momuuu »

Mitoe wrote:
momuuu wrote:And I'm saying you're taking captains for retarded braindeads, practically. They're often not too stupid to properly play age 1. I don't even know how you can in theory win age 1 almost every game against a person if they could just get better treasure spawns? It's straight up ignoring the fact that frequently you'll just not find good treasures early on - you can't beat someone in age 1 if the first treasures on hudson bay that you find are some 3 polar bear treasure, 60w with 3 wolfs and a polar bear HP treasure while the other guy has for example 150c with 3 wolfs and 100w with 2 polar bears close to his base.

I'm not calling Captains stupid. In my experience if I'm playing vs a Captain I almost always get the better treasures in age 1.

And even if your treasure spawn is significantly worse than your opponent you can still come out ahead. If I see explorer hp and 60w for 3 wolves, usually I'm going to choose to walk towards my opponent's side of the map in search of treasures and hope to contest them. In some cases this can even turn out better for me than for my opponent despite the fact that he had an objectively better treasure spawn, simply because I'll be higher hp, have kill/snare potential to deny him scouting, and if I do manage to steal one of the treasures he's started he's just behind regardless of where those treasures are positioned, to be honest.

But yes, this is why I said earlier in this thread that certain treasures (like 100% explorer hp for 8 renegados and similarly impossible to take treasures) have no place in 1v1. If all treasures were of roughly equal value to the strength of the guardians, and not untakable monstrosities, then the better player would come out ahead even more consistently.

If you don't believe me I'd be happy to play several games against you and see how age 1 goes. If you're right then across 10-20 games we should have roughly the same number of games where one of us gained an advantage in age 1 over the other, or broke even.

Instead of playing lame age 1 games Id rather enjoy life tbh. I dont doubt you get an advantage in age 1 most of the time, but I do really doubt its consistently a big advantage. You hardly even notice much of a difference between top players and captains. Hell, there are plenty of streams of h2o were you can watch him complain about getting unlucky and 'losing the game' due to treasures. Maybe against a particularly retarded captain you'll win age 1 more than 70%, but there are srsly captains out there that used their brain and ended up having a very solid age 1. I even know 1st lts that play age 1 like colonels. In the average game there are hardly even decisions to be made, and those decisions usually are quite obvious. Imo youre exaggerating how much skill age 1 is by a lot, and it wouldnt actually be hard to find countless of examples were a half decent player beats a top player in age 1.
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Re: Treasures

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Post by Mitoe »

Sorry, but most of the captains and majors I've played against don't really seem to have much of a clue of what they're doing in age 1, and you'd better believe that I'd beat captains more than 70% of the time.

Is there skill to playing it? Of course. Is it as big of a deal as I'm making it out to be? No, not really. That extra 80f or 100hp on your explorer isn't going to win you the game by itself, but it adds up. To get a decisive advantage in age 1 you have to deny things like scouting, trading posts, or forward bases; but the extra resources will never hurt you. How many times have you had a 4 hussar batch and had to sit in your base because your opponent got 5? It's enough of an advantage to make a difference, to be sure.

And to say that there's hardly ever decisions to be made or that they're obvious just tells me how much thought you've really put into it. It differs from game to game, but I definitely make a lot of decisions based on what my opponent is doing in age 1 and where he's scouting or hasn't scouted, and where I'm going to position my explorer or nats etc. to contest treasures or sneak treasures or deny scouting of certain parts of the map.

The small things in this game matter. The players who succeed at the highest level are good at the small things as well as the big picture stuff.

If this game had 100,000 active players, things like this would be far more important than they are right now. I don't really understand how you can say that nothing matters except your build order, and that the build order remains static most of the time. The fact that people think that mechanics are worthless, age 1 is worthless, and all of these other aspects of the game are worthless, really shows how a small community like this simply cannot challenge each other enough to improve the level of play to the point that these things are relevant in every game as they should be.
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Re: Treasures

Post by gibson »

Yea I was gonna say if the game was as active as league or csgo age one would be huge between top players but as it is peopleā€™s macro isnā€™t tight enough for it to generally make a differnence
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Re: Treasures

Post by Hazza54321 »

I always feel like a skillful player when 90w spawns in base
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Re: Treasures

Post by princeofkabul »

Captains particularly ain't braindead (nobody claimed they are). As Jerom says they most likely know what to do (ish). But don't have the skill,map awareness nor the gamesense to do it.
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Re: Treasures

Post by momuuu »

If this game got to the point where people are so good that treasures matter then people would be outraged at how luck based they are.

princeofkabul wrote:Captains particularly ain't braindead (nobody claimed they are). As Jerom says they most likely know what to do (ish). But don't have the skill,map awareness nor the gamesense to do it.

Tbh you just cant say that in general. It depends, some captains will play age 1 fine and some captains will crackshot a wolf 30f treasure on yukon.
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Re: Treasures

Post by princeofkabul »

momuuu wrote:If this game got to the point where people are so good that treasures matter then people would be outraged at how luck based they are.

princeofkabul wrote:Captains particularly ain't braindead (nobody claimed they are). As Jerom says they most likely know what to do (ish). But don't have the skill,map awareness nor the gamesense to do it.

Tbh you just cant say that in general. It depends, some captains will play age 1 fine and some captains will crackshot a wolf 30f treasure on yukon.


Also you're generalizing much. There are +35 pr players, then there are players who are actually good at this game. Which we call the top players. Rank rarely is the display of your overall skill level, taken your knowledge of the game over the years, I think you agree on this one.
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Re: Treasures

Post by Kaiserklein »

Maybe we should just get some pr 30s to play some age 1 games against Mitoe or me for example, and then see how it goes
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