India

[Garja]

You dont even get outmassed that's the point. If anything as azzies you get outecoed badly cuz India can easily FI but also drop 1-2 more TCs. You just didnt play a proper india FI.

[[Armag] diarouga]

You dont even get outmassed that's the point. If anything as azzies you get outecoed badly cuz India can easily FI but also drop 1-2 more TCs. You just didnt play a proper india FI.

I can't play India and Aztec FI at the same time, so if anything, I wasn't the one playing a bad India FI =><=

[Garja]

???
You never played someone who does a proper India FI. Can you read?

[Hazza54321]

oh lads have i missed a garja vs diarouga flame bitch fight/ thumb war :')

[greatscythe11]

Is it viable vs India to go heavy on cav and ranged infantry while keeping a minimal amount of anticav ? Sowars, lancer type units, find it hard to get past normal cav. India's anicav(normally sepoys and zams) do high damage so why not send cav cards and/or cavalry cuirass(if in age 3) for some added stats and protection ? Past a number, it is difficult(not impossible) to fully utilise melee units like cav so why not depend on eco for quantity and on shipments and arsenal for some quality ? As the anticav and ranged infantry of India are quite strong they need proper counter units.

Also, for European ffers(france, germany, spain) , how about early CIR(if a large sepoy mass has been scouted) and cav combat(within the first 3 fortress shipments) ? A crate shipment like 1k wood or 1k coin can provide for the CIR and mass. 20 skirms can do the job of nearly 30 with CIR, besides being easier to train, manage and replenish.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Is it viable vs India to go heavy on cav and ranged infantry while keeping a minimal amount of anticav ? Sowars, lancer type units, find it hard to get past normal cav. India's anicav(normally sepoys and zams) do high damage so why not send cav cards and/or cavalry cuirass(if in age 3) for some added stats and protection ? Past a number, it is difficult(not impossible) to fully utilise melee units like cav so why not depend on eco for quantity and on shipments and arsenal for some quality ? As the anticav and ranged infantry of India are quite strong they need proper counter units.

Also, for European ffers(france, germany, spain) , how about early CIR(if a large sepoy mass has been scouted) and cav combat(within the first 3 fortress shipments) ? A crate shipment like 1k wood or 1k coin can provide for the CIR and mass. 20 skirms can do the job of nearly 30 with CIR, besides being easier to train, manage and replenish.

In age 2, India usually goes for a lot of sepoys and some sowars, so you cannot go for a lot of cav.

Against age3 India however, it's a good idea since he will rely on his skirm mass and urumi shipment.
Make sure that you have enough anti cav to hold the 3 mahouts though.

[deleted_user0]

No from my experience if you do azzy FI vs somppu india FI it is jsut inferior. So very much relevant. You prob never played a good India FI.
Fre doesn't rly have the edge in current meta imo. It depends on map etc. but it's like 50% imo. Brits not so sure , I would pick India every time in that one. Port dunno either. Aiz just lost hard with Ports doing reasonable stuff I think. And it's not Somppu did the most sophisticated build. He rushed straight into CM and it worked.
Spain imo isnt' a good pick vs India.

aiz didn't do well there at all. he only got 3 tp's with atp, and got them very late. he should get 4 imo. but maybe sompu had a tres, i didnt watch it so closely. then he went for cav, which i think is the wrong choice. somppu also didn't win because of the rush, really, but because aiz made 5 organs and got ceasefired.

that said, i also think india fi should be able to match the azzy fi, you should be up at around the same time, and I don't think you should be outmassed in terms of unit pop. specially with the hero cover mode nerf, i think india should win on EP in FI battle. azzy should still win with regular play I feel, but I lately see india winning in this mu all the time. not sure if its because of their buff, or because of bad azzy players. I guess both.

[[Armag] diarouga]

India vs Azzy in age2 on normal maps is India favoured although one mistake can cost him the game.
On high TP maps (High Plains, Arizona etc), Azzy wins vs defensive play so India has to 10/10, and I'm not 100% sure Aztecs should win vs the 10/10, but I'd still say that it is Azzy favoured.
On normal maps, in age3 it's not so clear, because Aztec's timing is insane, but India has the agra and the 3 sets of mm, and late age3 (ie if India survives) is hopeless for Aztecs.

I should probably test the FI war again one day, but on the RE, Azzy used to win that.

[Hazza54321]

Problem with making cav vs india is that both of their anticav units are very strong. 7.5 speed zambs with x4 vs cav means your opponent cant trade well at all with cav.

[Lukas_L99]

that said, i also think india fi should be able to match the azzy fi, you should be up at around the same time, and I don't think you should be outmassed in terms of unit pop. specially with the hero cover mode nerf, i think india should win on EP in FI battle. azzy should still win with regular play I feel, but I lately see india winning in this mu all the time. not sure if its because of their buff, or because of bad azzy players. I guess both.

I'm curious how you think azzy should win with regular play. Whats regular play for you? You can't rlly rush or you get rekt by agra and 3 sets of MM and in mid/late colo india gets so many upgrades. How do you wanna touch gurkha/zamb?

[lordraphael]

I think the india buff flipped the mu in indias faovur. Game was always kinda india faovured unless somoene did mistakes, which usually happened. With the buff to india the mu is just more forgiving form iNdias POV

[greatscythe11]

Problem with making cav vs india is that both of their anticav units are very strong. 7.5 speed zambs with x4 vs cav means your opponent cant trade well at all with cav.

Well, the point I'm trying to make is a) you need to counter sepoys and zams with ranged infantry b) you need to counter gurkha with cav but c) you don't need to counter sowars with musks or pikes alone as hussars act as a decent pseudo counter. Further, if you go heavy on musk or pike and not enough cav, then both sepoys and gurkha counter musk and pike pretty hard. One decent example can be the last game in the final between H2O and BSOP in painted desert in 2015. That's why I feel that you don't need too much anticav vs age 2 India. If on the other hand some investment is made to improve the durability and damage output of cav to withstand the high dps anticav of India, the overall composition may fare better. Ofc, you still need a sizable RI mass to counter the Indian anticav but still a 3 unit combo with main focus on RI and cav(proportions based on the Indian combo)with nominal anticav has a decent shot I feel.

[Hazza54321]

i see your point but gurkha zamb are just so efficient, and gurkhas tend to beat other skirms so india can majority of the time go gurkha zamb with unit shipments to even up the skirm count (urumi, mahout, sowars etc). India can always do an unexpected cav switch too if they see your ranged inf + cav combo. sowars may be bad vs other cav but with x4 goons in the back ur cav just melts

[[Armag] diarouga]

i see your point but gurkha zamb are just so efficient, and gurkhas tend to beat other skirms so india can majority of the time go gurkha zamb with unit shipments to even up the skirm count (urumi, mahout, sowars etc). India can always do an unexpected cav switch too if they see your ranged inf + cav combo. sowars may be bad vs other cav but with x4 goons in the back ur cav just melts

Gurkhas in age3 have 1 less range than regular skirms, which means that everytime the opponent pokes you, you have to walk forward if you want to trade efficiently, so if you're outmassed, you'll get poked and lose a lot of gurkhas for free. Thus I wouldn't say gurkhas are better than other skirms.

[Garja]

their other stats are better, especially per cost, and they have a card while most of other civs dont

[deleted_user0]

that said, i also think india fi should be able to match the azzy fi, you should be up at around the same time, and I don't think you should be outmassed in terms of unit pop. specially with the hero cover mode nerf, i think india should win on EP in FI battle. azzy should still win with regular play I feel, but I lately see india winning in this mu all the time. not sure if its because of their buff, or because of bad azzy players. I guess both.

I'm curious how you think azzy should win with regular play. Whats regular play for you? You can't rlly rush or you get rekt by agra and 3 sets of MM and in mid/late colo india gets so many upgrades. How do you wanna touch gurkha/zamb?

Contain instead of rush. Sidestep agra. Pressure from the side. Scout cm carefully. Wait till india has to leave base for safe coin/food. So often i see ppl lose their army on agra, and 2 min later india runs out of food and can expand uncontested because of that failed push.

[Lukas_L99]

that said, i also think india fi should be able to match the azzy fi, you should be up at around the same time, and I don't think you should be outmassed in terms of unit pop. specially with the hero cover mode nerf, i think india should win on EP in FI battle. azzy should still win with regular play I feel, but I lately see india winning in this mu all the time. not sure if its because of their buff, or because of bad azzy players. I guess both.

I'm curious how you think azzy should win with regular play. Whats regular play for you? You can't rlly rush or you get rekt by agra and 3 sets of MM and in mid/late colo india gets so many upgrades. How do you wanna touch gurkha/zamb?

Contain instead of rush. Sidestep agra. Pressure from the side. Scout cm carefully. Wait till india has to leave base for safe coin/food. So often i see ppl lose their army on agra, and 2 min later india runs out of food and can expand uncontested because of that failed push.

The problem I see with that is that India will have such a big mass of gurkha/zamb with a few sowars/sepoys + upgrades. And I don’t think aztec can really beat that army. Mace are outranged and half of your coy die before reaching the opponent :/

[Garja]

EP maps all have a secure enough 2nd mine so it's hard for azzies to contain. Once India has 1 or 2 ups on the camels azzies can't do much.

[[Armag] diarouga]

For once garja is right.
Unless you have a decent TP line, India will break the contain before he runs out of gold.
Aztecs can sometimes win before (though I wouldn't try it), which is why rouga build into ff or fi is the best option imo.

[charlemango]

Most broken things about India:

1. Infinite 9 urumi shipment. It's like if Ottomans had infinite 6 mamelukes or something. So broken wtf! I think this could be nerfed to a 1 time 11 urumi shipment or something.
2. Explorers with infinite tanking potential. From a game design perspective, it makes no sense that India auto wins age 1, since their eco is quite good. So why do they get a free +200 resources in age 1, it's stupid. And in fights, it's like having +5 units automatically. But India units are already good so this makes no sense either!

[[Armag] diarouga]

Most broken things about India:

1. Infinite 9 urumi shipment. It's like if Ottomans had infinite 6 mamelukes or something. So broken wtf! I think this could be nerfed to a 1 time 11 urumi shipment or something.
2. Explorers with infinite tanking potential. From a game design perspective, it makes no sense that India auto wins age 1, since their eco is quite good. So why do they get a free +200 resources in age 1, it's stupid. And in fights, it's like having +5 units automatically. But India units are already good so this makes no sense either!

1. The infinite urumi shipment is part of the civ's design, and it's not really an issue, you shouldn't allow India to FI for free.
2. The monks are actually weak in age1. It was an issue when France had a snaring scout on the RE because you would auto lose your explorers in age1 in this MU.

It's true though that they become very good in age2+ because they're good vs skirms but that's part of the game and not that broken.
Furthermore, you can't get them back instantly for 100c.

[rsy]

Most broken things about India:

1. Infinite 9 urumi shipment. It's like if Ottomans had infinite 6 mamelukes or something. So broken wtf! I think this could be nerfed to a 1 time 11 urumi shipment or something.
2. Explorers with infinite tanking potential. From a game design perspective, it makes no sense that India auto wins age 1, since their eco is quite good. So why do they get a free +200 resources in age 1, it's stupid. And in fights, it's like having +5 units automatically. But India units are already good so this makes no sense either!

1. The infinite urumi shipment is part of the civ's design, and it's not really an issue, you shouldn't allow India to FI for free.
2. The monks are actually weak in age1. It was an issue when France had a snaring scout on the RE because you would auto lose your explorers in age1 in this MU.

It's true though that they become very good in age2+ because they're good vs skirms but that's part of the game and not that broken.
Furthermore, you can't get them back instantly for 100c.

Explain how infinite urumi is part of the design. Also even in age 2 having 2 xplorers is an advantage dont even talk about RE patch we already patched it with scout snare being removed. Probably the only civ that destroys age 1 india xplorers rn is sioux but none other and in later ages india explorers are great tanks

[[Armag] diarouga]

Most broken things about India:

1. Infinite 9 urumi shipment. It's like if Ottomans had infinite 6 mamelukes or something. So broken wtf! I think this could be nerfed to a 1 time 11 urumi shipment or something.
2. Explorers with infinite tanking potential. From a game design perspective, it makes no sense that India auto wins age 1, since their eco is quite good. So why do they get a free +200 resources in age 1, it's stupid. And in fights, it's like having +5 units automatically. But India units are already good so this makes no sense either!

1. The infinite urumi shipment is part of the civ's design, and it's not really an issue, you shouldn't allow India to FI for free.
2. The monks are actually weak in age1. It was an issue when France had a snaring scout on the RE because you would auto lose your explorers in age1 in this MU.

It's true though that they become very good in age2+ because they're good vs skirms but that's part of the game and not that broken.
Furthermore, you can't get them back instantly for 100c.

Explain how infinite urumi is part of the design. Also even in age 2 having 2 xplorers is an advantage dont even talk about RE patch we already patched it with scout snare being removed. Probably the only civ that destroys age 1 india xplorers rn is sioux but none other and in later ages india explorers are great tanks

Infinite urumi is the way age4 India works. Just the same way Ports rely on op goons/HC, Aztecs on infinite mace shipment/SK/WC, Japan on flaming arrows and yumi shipments etc.
You might not like it, but it's as it is, and as long as it doesn't break the balance, it's not an issue.

[Garja]

infinite urumi is stronger tho cause it's a unique unit and literally infinite. It's like an infinite spahi card but with even a less counterable unit.

[[Armag] diarouga]

It's stronger but not good enough to be game breaking.