India

[momuuu]

The publics opinion on india is being affected by the tournament format. First picks have to be all around civs that have no real weak match ups. India is one of those civs, as they're pretty all around and very flexible (good boom, good defense against rushes, can do very strong rushes themselves, can actually perform really well on water because EP made that 'schooners' shipment OP, and even their fortress is decent). But that doesn't mean india is OP imo.

I don't think they have a winrate of more than 55% if you take all match ups into account to be honest. It also is ridiculous to think that India is buffed compared to RE; 30 wood cost reduction on houses will never be better than 190 hp sepoys in ANY match up where sepoys are being made. Considering that India still produces sepoys in 90% of their games, it's ridiculous to think they were buffed. India was just always decent, and some of their counters became slightly weaker and less popular. Oh and people did finally realize that their eco style is not as weak as it may seem, especially because EP maps have enough hunts to turtle for 15 minutes. That being said, a quick semi FF still gives india plenty problems, but France/German have fallen slightly out of favor and Dutch has been favored slightly more - against which india at least has a more skill based match up.

In all honesty though, if you think India is overpowered your definition of overpowered is probably a weird one. Yes, they're super good on no TP maps - but EP doesn't really balance around that and in my opinion should never try to do so. Yes, they're really good in the meta game and tournament format where they are a safe pick against the civ pool of most players.

Are they overpowerd though? I will not believe india wins easily vs aztec, otto, france, germany, dutch, japan and possibly even iro. Honestly, I think almost all match ups are reasonably even. It doesn't seem overpowered in any sense.

[gibson]

Literally everything you said was incorrect, as per usual, and not surprising considering you dont play the game

[[Armag] diarouga]

Literally everything you said was incorrect, as per usual, and not surprising considering you dont play the game

I think what Jerom said was quite relevant.

[sebnan12]

Literally everything you said was incorrect, as per usual, and not surprising considering you dont play the game

I think what Jerom said was quite relevant.

what a way to waste ur 6900th post..

[deleted_user0]

Literally everything you said was incorrect, as per usual, and not surprising considering you dont play the game

I think what Jerom said was quite relevant.

#metoo

[momuuu]

Literally everything you said was incorrect, as per usual, and not surprising considering you dont play the game

Literally every post you ever make in response to me is like this one: zero arguments and some flame.

[oxaloacetate]

Literally everything you said was incorrect, as per usual, and not surprising considering you dont play the game

isn't that the main prerequisite to join the balance team? /j

[Gendarme]

Literally everything you said was incorrect, as per usual, and not surprising considering you dont play the game

Literally every post you ever make in response to me is like this one: zero arguments and some flame.

Figuratively every use of "literally" on this forum has been either redundant or plain wrong.

[deleted_user0]

Literally everything you said was incorrect, as per usual, and not surprising considering you dont play the game

Literally every post you ever make in response to me is like this one: zero arguments and some flame.

Figuratively every use of "literally" on this forum has been either redundant or plain wrong.

Use follows definition, and definition follows use. As such, it has been used correctly, unless you're a Nazi, of course, of the grammatical kind!

[deleted_user0]

all the active players asking for an india nerf, all the inactive are blissfully clueless. I think thats a telltale sign. They were already pretty good on RE, after a buff overall to the civ in general (cheaper houses), theyre over the edge even with the sepoy nerf. People just didnt know how to play them before and like tabben said always went for the bot rush which was just so bad, now people have abused indias buying time capabilities, and brokeness of urumis rather than staying age 2 and getting outskirmed. Not every civ can make 50 expensive musk units ship urumis and reach imperial in under 20 minutes.

maybe because all the good players have become inactive, the active players are blissfully clueless of how to play the game and beat nubindia!

[spoiler=spoiler][/spoiler]

[gibson]

all the active players asking for an india nerf, all the inactive are blissfully clueless. I think thats a telltale sign. They were already pretty good on RE, after a buff overall to the civ in general (cheaper houses), theyre over the edge even with the sepoy nerf. People just didnt know how to play them before and like tabben said always went for the bot rush which was just so bad, now people have abused indias buying time capabilities, and brokeness of urumis rather than staying age 2 and getting outskirmed. Not every civ can make 50 expensive musk units ship urumis and reach imperial in under 20 minutes.

maybe because all the good players have become inactive, the active players are blissfully clueless of how to play the game and beat nubindia!

[spoiler=spoiler]:uglylol:[/spoiler]

mad cause bad?

[deleted_user0]

all the active players asking for an india nerf, all the inactive are blissfully clueless. I think thats a telltale sign. They were already pretty good on RE, after a buff overall to the civ in general (cheaper houses), theyre over the edge even with the sepoy nerf. People just didnt know how to play them before and like tabben said always went for the bot rush which was just so bad, now people have abused indias buying time capabilities, and brokeness of urumis rather than staying age 2 and getting outskirmed. Not every civ can make 50 expensive musk units ship urumis and reach imperial in under 20 minutes.

maybe because all the good players have become inactive, the active players are blissfully clueless of how to play the game and beat nubindia!

[spoiler=spoiler]:uglylol:[/spoiler]

mad cause bad?

the active players whining
in this thread? YEAH!

[[Armag] diarouga]

all the active players asking for an india nerf, all the inactive are blissfully clueless. I think thats a telltale sign. They were already pretty good on RE, after a buff overall to the civ in general (cheaper houses), theyre over the edge even with the sepoy nerf. People just didnt know how to play them before and like tabben said always went for the bot rush which was just so bad, now people have abused indias buying time capabilities, and brokeness of urumis rather than staying age 2 and getting outskirmed. Not every civ can make 50 expensive musk units ship urumis and reach imperial in under 20 minutes.

maybe because all the good players have become inactive, the active players are blissfully clueless of how to play the game and beat nubindia!

[spoiler=spoiler]:uglylol:[/spoiler]

That's likely. Japan and India were considered op before the ESOC tournaments because people were just bad.

[greatscythe11]

Will it affect the balance if the outpost be buffed a bit(hit points, maybe 500) or its cost reduced? I feel like the outpost can be an important tool vs sepoy and jan rushes. It provides 30 extra damage so that combined damage of 120(90 from tc) two shots sepoys( 2 tc and 1 tower but I don't know the micro) and jans(5 overkill).It costs about 3-4 xbows or less than half of cm but a) has the base damage of about 2 xbows but hp of 20 xbows b) has 8 more range c) 3 shots sowars and gardeners d) can be built in transition e) can't be stomped, meleed or focussed down from 12 range f) can be a garrison point between mine and tc and h) basically guarantees the shipment(8 skirm for example) even if the tc goes down. Infantry and cav generally have 6 range for siege so if by placing buildings and wall pieces around it the range is denied even partially, the sieging can be slowed down.In the H2O vs LordRaphael(Spain vs Otto) the outpost which was exposed was the first thing to go down. You can use shift click to combine tc and outpost(tc shift outpost) and assign a control group. Overall, I think it can lower the requirement for xbows and create a better or faster window for aging. The castle can also have a similar argument.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Will it affect the balance if the outpost be buffed a bit(hit points, maybe 500) or its cost reduced? I feel like the outpost can be an important tool vs sepoy and jan rushes. It provides 30 extra damage so that combined damage of 120(90 from tc) two shots sepoys( 2 tc and 1 tower but I don't know the micro) and jans(5 overkill).It costs about 3-4 xbows or less than half of cm but a) has the base damage of about 2 xbows but hp of 20 xbows b) has 8 more range c) 3 shots sowars and gardeners d) can be built in transition e) can't be stomped, meleed or focussed down from 12 range f) can be a garrison point between mine and tc and h) basically guarantees the shipment(8 skirm for example) even if the tc goes down. Infantry and cav generally have 6 range for siege so if by placing buildings and wall pieces around it the range is denied even partially, the sieging can be slowed down.In the H2O vs LordRaphael(Spain vs Otto) the outpost which was exposed was the first thing to go down. You can use shift click to combine tc and outpost(tc shift outpost) and assign a control group. Overall, I think it can lower the requirement for xbows and create a better or faster window for aging. The castle can also have a similar argument.

No, outposts wouldn't be viable.
First, both sepoys and jans die in 2 TC shots currently. In addition, an outpost costs 4-5 bows because it's only wood and it requires villagers to build it.
And finally, India could just go back, boom and age if you spend too much in static defenses (and then win), or ignore it and kill all your outposts with 30 sepoys.

[greatscythe11]

Well, I'm pretty sure making more than one will probably cost the game and I am only talking about building only one,never more. Also xbows do have a pop cost of 10w as well. Thats why I thought it costs about 3-4 xbows. However if you have both troops and the tower, going for the tower should allow for some free shots. Further, the damage vs cav is also not insignificant. Plus, as I said the approach to the outpost must not be easy and building placement must be carefully handled.

[deleted_user0]

Will it affect the balance if the outpost be buffed a bit(hit points, maybe 500) or its cost reduced? I feel like the outpost can be an important tool vs sepoy and jan rushes. It provides 30 extra damage so that combined damage of 120(90 from tc) two shots sepoys( 2 tc and 1 tower but I don't know the micro) and jans(5 overkill).It costs about 3-4 xbows or less than half of cm but a) has the base damage of about 2 xbows but hp of 20 xbows b) has 8 more range c) 3 shots sowars and gardeners d) can be built in transition e) can't be stomped, meleed or focussed down from 12 range f) can be a garrison point between mine and tc and h) basically guarantees the shipment(8 skirm for example) even if the tc goes down. Infantry and cav generally have 6 range for siege so if by placing buildings and wall pieces around it the range is denied even partially, the sieging can be slowed down.In the H2O vs LordRaphael(Spain vs Otto) the outpost which was exposed was the first thing to go down. You can use shift click to combine tc and outpost(tc shift outpost) and assign a control group. Overall, I think it can lower the requirement for xbows and create a better or faster window for aging. The castle can also have a similar argument.

No, outposts wouldn't be viable.
First, both sepoys and jans die in 2 TC shots currently. In addition, an outpost costs 4-5 bows because it's only wood and it requires villagers to build it.
And finally, India could just go back, boom and age if you spend too much in static defenses (and then win), or ignore it and kill all your outposts with 30 sepoys.

jans don't die in 2 shots

[Garja]

Outpost buff is something reasonable but more of a desogn choice tuan a tool to improve balance.
Right now outposts are even underrated. EP maps and meta partially removed some of the reasons why outposts were not a viable option.

[momuuu]

Outpost buff wouldnt really directly help against india though, as sepoy die in 2 tc shots anyways.

[Garja]

all the active players asking for an india nerf, all the inactive are blissfully clueless. I think thats a telltale sign. They were already pretty good on RE, after a buff overall to the civ in general (cheaper houses), theyre over the edge even with the sepoy nerf. People just didnt know how to play them before and like tabben said always went for the bot rush which was just so bad, now people have abused indias buying time capabilities, and brokeness of urumis rather than staying age 2 and getting outskirmed. Not every civ can make 50 expensive musk units ship urumis and reach imperial in under 20 minutes.

maybe because all the good players have become inactive, the active players are blissfully clueless of how to play the game and beat nubindia!

[spoiler=spoiler]:uglylol:[/spoiler]

That's likely. Japan and India were considered op before the ESOC tournaments because people were just bad.

No they were and are OP because they objectively have more eco and stroger units than other civs.
EP chamges just made tempo more important so that civs such as Fre or Germans could exploit it consistently to win games.
The current tourney has the overall highest skill level that we had in a while. So, no it is not about being better or worse. If anything players have finally fully adapted to EP and learnt how to buy time to compensate for tempo advantages (e.g. classic sepoy counter raid or stuff like 300w builds with Jap).

[deleted_user0]

For once, I kinda agree with Garja here.
Asian civs have more objective potential but they are kinda slow if not played fast/seeking to play time. I also think that the current level is quite good even though people will come here romanticizing old finals. People have learnt to "maximizie" nilla civ potential while ago but for example for India that is happening now.

For example, in 2016 finals _h2o lost both games as india. Simply, everything he did was terrible and even Tit would beat h2o 2016 India 5-0.

Consulate rush without sowars vs dutch? Aging 5:30 (back then meta was basically always 1 vill on wonder) vs Russia?

Having a few dominant players does not mean that the level was better.

[greatscythe11]

Outpost buff wouldnt really directly help against india though, as sepoy die in 2 tc shots anyways.

Well, vs consulate rush, though, it can be still effective. Also, 3 shotting cav can also be useful since vill punching with greatcoat can be used vs cav.

Outpost buff is something reasonable but more of a desogn choice tuan a tool to improve balance.
Right now outposts are even underrated. EP maps and meta partially removed some of the reasons why outposts were not a viable option.

There can be other applications of the outpost/castle. For example
a) Japan vs Russia can use a castle to one shot the first batch of infantry while starting stable with tori gate. It will save the cm and expedite the wood shipment or a unit shipment if necessary.
b) Vs Iroquois, cm plus outpost/castle can one shot tomahawk and aennas. Need to take out the WC though.
Overall if the age up by design is too late to train army in time to defend, outpost/castle can be used. Also, if the unit choices are not efficient enough to create a reasonable window for aging, outpost can be used as a defensive element rather than spending a lot on inefficient units.

[Garja]

Outposts already do fine in that regard. Any further buff would be a design choice rather than something to address current balance. I'm not saying it's not reasonable but it isn't something we should focus on at the moment.

[tabben]

For reference, here are the non-mirror india losses so far in elimination brackets:

Aiz (Japan) > iamturk (India)
mongo (Dutch) > knusch (India)
soldier (France) > Lukas (India)
kaiser (Germany) > soldier (India)
snowww (Dutch) > Garja (India)
Major Dark (Duch) > Eaglemut (India)
Hazza (Japan) > Lecastete (India)

[Garja]

Ye and those are all referable to player's performance.