Garja wrote:Ye and those are all referable to player's performance.
Yup as any game involving real people playing. Still shows that playing India hasn't been auto-win this tourney (someone said they didn't lose a single non-mirror in brackets) and we've also seen that players are fine clicking into a non-mirror vs India.
It may not have been auto win but most of those game were in favor of India or completely misplayed by the India player. So I don't rly know what's the point with that list.
And neither were they played perfectly by the opponent.. The point is to keep out false posts like "india hasn't lost a single non-mirror" in a thread where people are trying to work out whether india is op or not
Seriously though if you look at the indian losses the players on the left are mostly better than the ones on the right, and even so the games were very close. For example garja was ahead in his one by far until erikraiden, aiz won because of a clutch nagi pop and i almost lost mine
Hazza54321 wrote:all the active players asking for an india nerf, all the inactive are blissfully clueless. I think thats a telltale sign. They were already pretty good on RE, after a buff overall to the civ in general (cheaper houses), theyre over the edge even with the sepoy nerf. People just didnt know how to play them before and like tabben said always went for the bot rush which was just so bad, now people have abused indias buying time capabilities, and brokeness of urumis rather than staying age 2 and getting outskirmed. Not every civ can make 50 expensive musk units ship urumis and reach imperial in under 20 minutes.
maybe because all the good players have become inactive, the active players are blissfully clueless of how to play the game and beat nubindia!
[spoiler=spoiler]:uglylol:[/spoiler]
That's likely. Japan and India were considered op before the ESOC tournaments because people were just bad.
No they were and are OP because they objectively have more eco and stroger units than other civs. EP chamges just made tempo more important so that civs such as Fre or Germans could exploit it consistently to win games. The current tourney has the overall highest skill level that we had in a while. So, no it is not about being better or worse. If anything players have finally fully adapted to EP and learnt how to buy time to compensate for tempo advantages (e.g. classic sepoy counter raid or stuff like 300w builds with Jap).
The highest skill level in a while lol? I don't see H2O, blackstar, Samwise or diarouga.
Tbh it's just because the people who signed up are mostly agressive players, and didn't defend properly.
Furthermore, 300w build as Japan isn't viable in most MUs, and sepoy counter raids don't really work since you just waste units.
somppukunkku wrote:For once, I kinda agree with Garja here. Asian civs have more objective potential but they are kinda slow if not played fast/seeking to play time. I also think that the current level is quite good even though people will come here romanticizing old finals. People have learnt to "maximizie" nilla civ potential while ago but for example for India that is happening now.
For example, in 2016 finals _h2o lost both games as india. Simply, everything he did was terrible and even Tit would beat h2o 2016 India 5-0.
Consulate rush without sowars vs dutch? Aging 5:30 (back then meta was basically always 1 vill on wonder) vs Russia?
Having a few dominant players does not mean that the level was better.
H2O doesn't play Brits, and he didn't practice this MU. Honestly on decent maps India vs Brit is a fine MU.
Hazza54321 wrote:all the active players asking for an india nerf, all the inactive are blissfully clueless. I think thats a telltale sign. They were already pretty good on RE, after a buff overall to the civ in general (cheaper houses), theyre over the edge even with the sepoy nerf. People just didnt know how to play them before and like tabben said always went for the bot rush which was just so bad, now people have abused indias buying time capabilities, and brokeness of urumis rather than staying age 2 and getting outskirmed. Not every civ can make 50 expensive musk units ship urumis and reach imperial in under 20 minutes.
maybe because all the good players have become inactive, the active players are blissfully clueless of how to play the game and beat nubindia!
[spoiler=spoiler]:uglylol:[/spoiler]
That's likely. Japan and India were considered op before the ESOC tournaments because people were just bad.
No they were and are OP because they objectively have more eco and stroger units than other civs. EP chamges just made tempo more important so that civs such as Fre or Germans could exploit it consistently to win games. The current tourney has the overall highest skill level that we had in a while. So, no it is not about being better or worse. If anything players have finally fully adapted to EP and learnt how to buy time to compensate for tempo advantages (e.g. classic sepoy counter raid or stuff like 300w builds with Jap).
The highest skill level in a while lol? I don't see H2O, blackstar, Samwise or diarouga.
Tbh it's just because the people who signed up are mostly agressive players, and didn't defend properly.
Furthermore, 300w build as Japan isn't viable in most MUs, and sepoy counter raids don't really work since you just waste units.
Last time Samwise and Bsop played they were mostly rusty so better to actually have active players. Also you don't count. And also I said overall level. Few names don't make the level higher especially where one side of the bracket is end up being weak. As for 300w and sepoy raids you don't know what you're talking about. You just don't play the game to know.
Hazza54321 wrote:all the active players asking for an india nerf, all the inactive are blissfully clueless. I think thats a telltale sign. They were already pretty good on RE, after a buff overall to the civ in general (cheaper houses), theyre over the edge even with the sepoy nerf. People just didnt know how to play them before and like tabben said always went for the bot rush which was just so bad, now people have abused indias buying time capabilities, and brokeness of urumis rather than staying age 2 and getting outskirmed. Not every civ can make 50 expensive musk units ship urumis and reach imperial in under 20 minutes.
maybe because all the good players have become inactive, the active players are blissfully clueless of how to play the game and beat nubindia!
[spoiler=spoiler]:uglylol:[/spoiler]
That's likely. Japan and India were considered op before the ESOC tournaments because people were just bad.
No they were and are OP because they objectively have more eco and stroger units than other civs. EP chamges just made tempo more important so that civs such as Fre or Germans could exploit it consistently to win games. The current tourney has the overall highest skill level that we had in a while. So, no it is not about being better or worse. If anything players have finally fully adapted to EP and learnt how to buy time to compensate for tempo advantages (e.g. classic sepoy counter raid or stuff like 300w builds with Jap).
The highest skill level in a while lol? I don't see H2O, blackstar, Samwise or diarouga.
Tbh it's just because the people who signed up are mostly agressive players, and didn't defend properly.
Furthermore, 300w build as Japan isn't viable in most MUs, and sepoy counter raids don't really work since you just waste units.
Last time Samwise and Bsop played they were mostly rusty so better to actually have active players. Also you don't count. And also I said overall level. Few names don't make the level higher especially where one side of the bracket is end up being weak. As for 300w and sepoy raids you don't know what you're talking about. You just don't play the game to know.
the level is definitely not higher now, cmon. like half the players in top 8 wouldn't have made it past ro16 a 2 years ago, and they were playing the game for a long time then as well. not talking about tabben or newer players. i don't think there's a big difference overall, levels are about the same.
Aren't Dutch and French favored against Indians anyway? France can always age up safely and their early fortress timing hits pretty hard, and EP Dutch is just EleGiggle.
french should probs win, but mu is kinda weird, the balance was very precarious. it may have switched in indias favor with cdb nerf and india buff. dutch shouldnt win imo.
In my experience Dutch probably wins. But it's not a terrible match up. Dutch outmasses a bit, but a better player can outplay/outmicro to the win. Also, at some point india starts to overtake Dutch again. But still I'd favor Dutch, especially on the lower hunt maps. If there are tons of hunts then maybe india wins again. Same with France and Germany imo; on very high hunt maps india can turtle for very long. However on the average map, I'd favor those two. Also, I'm still convinced otto beats india, both with jan abus hussar timing and with FF. India vs aztec can't be better than even for india, and I honestly doubt India can reliable break aztec's contain in time without taking too much damage. There's also a bunch of verry decent match ups. Maybe india is slightly on the up in terms of average expected winrate, but I wouldn't say its worthy of a nerf.
Hazza54321 wrote:all the active players asking for an india nerf, all the inactive are blissfully clueless. I think thats a telltale sign. They were already pretty good on RE, after a buff overall to the civ in general (cheaper houses), theyre over the edge even with the sepoy nerf. People just didnt know how to play them before and like tabben said always went for the bot rush which was just so bad, now people have abused indias buying time capabilities, and brokeness of urumis rather than staying age 2 and getting outskirmed. Not every civ can make 50 expensive musk units ship urumis and reach imperial in under 20 minutes.
maybe because all the good players have become inactive, the active players are blissfully clueless of how to play the game and beat nubindia!
[spoiler=spoiler]:uglylol:[/spoiler]
That's likely. Japan and India were considered op before the ESOC tournaments because people were just bad.
No they were and are OP because they objectively have more eco and stroger units than other civs. EP chamges just made tempo more important so that civs such as Fre or Germans could exploit it consistently to win games. The current tourney has the overall highest skill level that we had in a while. So, no it is not about being better or worse. If anything players have finally fully adapted to EP and learnt how to buy time to compensate for tempo advantages (e.g. classic sepoy counter raid or stuff like 300w builds with Jap).
The highest skill level in a while lol? I don't see H2O, blackstar, Samwise or diarouga.
Tbh it's just because the people who signed up are mostly agressive players, and didn't defend properly.
Furthermore, 300w build as Japan isn't viable in most MUs, and sepoy counter raids don't really work since you just waste units.
Last time Samwise and Bsop played they were mostly rusty so better to actually have active players. Also you don't count. And also I said overall level. Few names don't make the level higher especially where one side of the bracket is end up being weak. As for 300w and sepoy raids you don't know what you're talking about. You just don't play the game to know.
the level is definitely not higher now, cmon. like half the players in top 8 wouldn't have made it past ro16 a 2 years ago, and they were playing the game for a long time then as well. not talking about tabben or newer players. i don't think there's a big difference overall, levels are about the same.
This argument is bad. Most of the (this year) top 8 players were way worse 2 years ago than now. I legitimately think that 2018 Somppu would beat 2016 somppu 10-0 in BO19.
momuuu wrote:In my experience Dutch probably wins. But it's not a terrible match up. Dutch outmasses a bit, but a better player can outplay/outmicro to the win. Also, at some point india starts to overtake Dutch again. But still I'd favor Dutch, especially on the lower hunt maps. If there are tons of hunts then maybe india wins again. Same with France and Germany imo; on very high hunt maps india can turtle for very long. However on the average map, I'd favor those two. Also, I'm still convinced otto beats india, both with jan abus hussar timing and with FF. India vs aztec can't be better than even for india, and I honestly doubt India can reliable break aztec's contain in time without taking too much damage. There's also a bunch of verry decent match ups. Maybe india is slightly on the up in terms of average expected winrate, but I wouldn't say its worthy of a nerf.
Otto ff fails for sure vs India. Not sure about jan/abus but I don't see Otto winning easily.
Hazza54321 wrote:all the active players asking for an india nerf, all the inactive are blissfully clueless. I think thats a telltale sign. They were already pretty good on RE, after a buff overall to the civ in general (cheaper houses), theyre over the edge even with the sepoy nerf. People just didnt know how to play them before and like tabben said always went for the bot rush which was just so bad, now people have abused indias buying time capabilities, and brokeness of urumis rather than staying age 2 and getting outskirmed. Not every civ can make 50 expensive musk units ship urumis and reach imperial in under 20 minutes.
maybe because all the good players have become inactive, the active players are blissfully clueless of how to play the game and beat nubindia!
[spoiler=spoiler]:uglylol:[/spoiler]
That's likely. Japan and India were considered op before the ESOC tournaments because people were just bad.
No they were and are OP because they objectively have more eco and stroger units than other civs. EP chamges just made tempo more important so that civs such as Fre or Germans could exploit it consistently to win games. The current tourney has the overall highest skill level that we had in a while. So, no it is not about being better or worse. If anything players have finally fully adapted to EP and learnt how to buy time to compensate for tempo advantages (e.g. classic sepoy counter raid or stuff like 300w builds with Jap).
The highest skill level in a while lol? I don't see H2O, blackstar, Samwise or diarouga.
Tbh it's just because the people who signed up are mostly agressive players, and didn't defend properly.
Furthermore, 300w build as Japan isn't viable in most MUs, and sepoy counter raids don't really work since you just waste units.
Last time Samwise and Bsop played they were mostly rusty so better to actually have active players. Also you don't count. And also I said overall level. Few names don't make the level higher especially where one side of the bracket is end up being weak. As for 300w and sepoy raids you don't know what you're talking about. You just don't play the game to know.
the level is definitely not higher now, cmon. like half the players in top 8 wouldn't have made it past ro16 a 2 years ago, and they were playing the game for a long time then as well. not talking about tabben or newer players. i don't think there's a big difference overall, levels are about the same.
This argument is bad. Most of the (this year) top 8 players were way worse 2 years ago than now. I legitimately think that 2018 Somppu would beat 2016 somppu 10-0 in BO19.
For sure, but 2018 Somppu would lose to 2016 _H2O, 2016 bsop and 2016 Samwise. The point is that while you've improved, players who stopped playing became worse, and I think that the 2nd factor is more relevant.
Hazza54321 
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charlemango 
[Armag] diarouga 
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