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Dunno if I'd call sioux top 3 but it's above average. And I'd like to see the hp aura nerfed because it's just really bad design, teepees easily pay off thanks to the gathering boost, and then sioux base becomes a fortress on top of that

Kaiserklein wrote:Dunno if I'd call sioux top 3 but it's above average. And I'd like to see the hp aura nerfed because it's just really bad design, teepees easily pay off thanks to the gathering boost, and then sioux base becomes a fortress on top of that

no. just no.

the hp aura boost is what teepees were there for. and it really fits well with the sioux "eco is in army" design. nerf the eco aura boost or leave it be.

bleugh

good work!

umeu wrote:

Kaiserklein wrote:Dunno if I'd call sioux top 3 but it's above average. And I'd like to see the hp aura nerfed because it's just really bad design, teepees easily pay off thanks to the gathering boost, and then sioux base becomes a fortress on top of that

no. just no.

the hp aura boost is what teepees were there for. and it really fits well with the sioux "eco is in army" design. nerf the eco aura boost or leave it be.

bleugh

Yea, I agree. Teepees were designed to buff the units, not the eco, so we can't really nerf the HP boost.
On the RE people wouldn't make teepees, that shows where the issue is.

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=15877&hilit=EP+balance+poll
I think you should considere only this to tell what "people" find OP. And there you see sioux are ok (number 5 civ don't need a nerf yet Imo)
Considering this, I would say it's mandatory to nerf india, and possible to nerf dutch/buff spain or russia or chinese. Other changes aren't an option Imo.
Personnally I would just nerf india and buff spain.
Then the aztec change is more a bug correction than a real balance change Imo, so if you want.

Well I'm just saying that the real problem now is the hp boost. The eco boost granted by teepees isn't broken, but stacking so much hp on units is. I guess you could nerf the gathering boost to make teepees more expensive basically, but the hp boost would still be broken, for example dropping teepees just before a fight with wakinas is pretty strong. Maybe start by removing that ability then.

bwinner1 wrote:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-jQIt_e18dWKQwdb43e3qRfIF1iWUor4MecWXFeDgyw/edit#gid=0
I think you should considere only this to tell what "people" find OP. And there you see sioux are ok (number 5 civ don't need a nerf yet Imo)

I'm really sorry if this sounds patronizing, but people don't really know the state of the balance ...
The opinion of the community is still very relevant, as we want everybody to play on the EP, but small changes affect high level play a lot more.
As I said, I don't think that Sioux is op, but every top player I've asked (Mitoe, kaiser, hazza, tabben, erik) thinks Sioux deserves a nerf, and they know the game better than average people.

[Armag] diarouga wrote:

bwinner1 wrote:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-jQIt_e18dWKQwdb43e3qRfIF1iWUor4MecWXFeDgyw/edit#gid=0
I think you should considere only this to tell what "people" find OP. And there you see sioux are ok (number 5 civ don't need a nerf yet Imo)

I'm really sorry if this sounds patronizing, but people don't really know the state of the balance ...
The opinion of the community is still very relevant, as we want everybody to play on the EP, but small changes affect high level play a lot more.
As I said, I don't think that Sioux is op, but every top player I've asked (Mitoe, kaiser, hazza, tabben, erik) thinks Sioux deserves a nerf, and they know the game better than average people.

I would like to know your though about a spain buff

Kaiserklein wrote:Well I'm just saying that the real problem now is the hp boost. The eco boost granted by teepees isn't broken, but stacking so much hp on units is. I guess you could nerf the gathering boost to make teepees more expensive basically, but the hp boost would still be broken, for example dropping teepees just before a fight with wakinas is pretty strong. Maybe start by removing that ability then.

The goal of this change is indeed to make teepees more expensive in a way.

bwinner1 wrote:

[Armag] diarouga wrote:

bwinner1 wrote:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-jQIt_e18dWKQwdb43e3qRfIF1iWUor4MecWXFeDgyw/edit#gid=0
I think you should considere only this to tell what "people" find OP. And there you see sioux are ok (number 5 civ don't need a nerf yet Imo)

I'm really sorry if this sounds patronizing, but people don't really know the state of the balance ...
The opinion of the community is still very relevant, as we want everybody to play on the EP, but small changes affect high level play a lot more.
As I said, I don't think that Sioux is op, but every top player I've asked (Mitoe, kaiser, hazza, tabben, erik) thinks Sioux deserves a nerf, and they know the game better than average people.

I would like to know your though about a spain buff

What do you suggest?
According to my civ ranking, Spain is 6th, and according to Mitoe's they're 8th, so I don't think they're bad.
H2O also used to say they were underrated.

Yes but you would still be able to drop last second teepees with your infantry, and sioux would still be able to have a fortified base on maps where there's good resources in base (since teepees would still pay off quite quickly).

Kaiserklein wrote:Yes but you would still be able to drop last second teepees with your infantry, and sioux would still be able to have a fortified base on maps where there's good resources in base (since teepees would still pay off quite quickly).

Maybe the wakina ability is broken then, idk.

small spain buff could be cool idk what though

The opinion of the masses is shit. People look at civs from a tournament point of view; is it good as a first pick? is it good as a counter pick? is it good on shitty no TP maps or weird maps without hunts? But balance has nothing to do with that, balance is about civs averaging a winrate across all 14 match ups of close to 50% on standard maps. That's how balance should be determined, and that's why the opinion of the public should be disregarded because the public seems to lack the ability to form a good opinion on this.

[Armag] diarouga wrote:

umeu wrote:

Kaiserklein wrote:Dunno if I'd call sioux top 3 but it's above average. And I'd like to see the hp aura nerfed because it's just really bad design, teepees easily pay off thanks to the gathering boost, and then sioux base becomes a fortress on top of that

no. just no.

the hp aura boost is what teepees were there for. and it really fits well with the sioux "eco is in army" design. nerf the eco aura boost or leave it be.

bleugh

Yea, I agree. Teepees were designed to buff the units, not the eco, so we can't really nerf the HP boost.
On the RE people wouldn't make teepees, that shows where the issue is.

i sometimes made teepees with sioux on re, but yeah, they needed a buff on re. eco aura is a kind of buff, and it works. if it's too strong, make the eco aura weaker. or buff teepees in different ways (aka cheaper, or give the building more hp, i liked the idea of making them mobile buildings, like a wagon, but this wasn't possible)

Hazza54321 wrote:small spain buff could be cool idk what though

revert xp civ bonus to Nilla.

xp civ bonus seems reasonable indeed. Another option would be to give spain a 2nd shipment option in age 1 on every map, because currently it's only possible to go atp, but what if they could send 3 vils a 2nd time for instance ? (maybe I should move this to spain discution thread)

that would be really good actually omeo

goon rr revert makes teamgames unplayable. :p

bwinner1 wrote:xp civ bonus seems reasonable indeed. Another option would be to give spain a 2nd shipment option in age 1 on every map, because currently it's only possible to go atp, but what if they could send 3 vils a 2nd time for instance ? (maybe I should move this to spain discution thread)

Still sounds worse than saving the shipment.

I think Spain is fine right now to be honest.

There is no less of an EP team than there's been for the past two years or so (one leader + input from various players).
Was actually meant to release EP6 beta on the weekend, but alas, I'm too slow.

Teepees are just a big pile of shit at the moment, mostly because they have been changed too much.
Even on RE teepees have a purpose and you see typical Sioux lamers actually dropping a few to hold attacks in base (not early on but like after 700w sometimes).
The problem with teepees was just that they cost too much for their utility and, maybe, that they were too easy to kill.
Now instead:
- they cost less and have more hp;
- you can spam more and they have more range;
- they give eco bonus from default;
- they can be built by units by default;

The last two especially are completely unecessary and even bad by design.
Whoever did these changes simply didn't appreciate the difference between fine tuning balance and brainstorming completely foolish ideas.

biggest problem of team is that the maps are size of a fucking sahara. idk about jinetes

nah 20 range goon with 30% rr were a problem too, people still complain about 18 range and 20% rr

2x3vill is also ass, i wonder if giving spain 400w could balance them, or maybe 1kgold