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France Kaiserklein
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12 Dec 2018, 15:55

Well if you don't wanna spend the time to discuss then I guess it makes sense that he's not asking your opinion anymore
Micro tricks

LoOk_tOm: I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..

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United States of America Cometk
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12 Dec 2018, 15:56

ftr the upcoming beta has been reduced to the most pertinent 25-30 changes
sebnan12 wrote:whenever i see a picture of siege elephants i question why they do 40~ dmg when they hit u. that phat cannons probably loading coconuts
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Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
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12 Dec 2018, 15:58

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Garja wrote:There was a poll from GS back then either on discord or on the forums and we voted for that option.

Yes, for GS, not for Zoi.
It's not because we decided back then to pick a dictator because he was doing a good job, that we should pick a new dictator who doesn't do his job well.

The poll was about the structure of the EP work, not who.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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12 Dec 2018, 15:58

Kaiserklein wrote:Well if you don't wanna spend the time to discuss then I guess it makes sense that he's not asking your opinion anymore

I want to spend time to discuss 10 relevant changes (like I did in the thread "EP suggestion"), not 80 useless changes lol.
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France Kaiserklein
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12 Dec 2018, 16:07

In your thread you didn't address enough issues though... And I agree there were too many changes, but he fixed it now. I personally didn't have to discuss 80 changes, I just said when a change was irrelevant and didn't say more about it, and spent time discussing the important stuff
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LoOk_tOm: I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..

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Turkey HUMMAN
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12 Dec 2018, 16:46

I like how zoi acts bolds and tweaks meta, i appreciate his vision. While there may be bad choices according to some, both design wise and balance, i think improvement is open. I would like EP meta game, instead of static game because:
-civs are different almost impossible to balance 196MU's on tp and non-tp maps.
-we have enough pro players to create meta
-new playerbase maybe get interested in EP meta, a switch from RE?
Cant know without trying, current EP is not too different from Re if this new patch sucks ESOC can always revert to previous patches. Also even biggest games (dota, cs) when they introduce a new patch, lost of imba strats appear and these are tweaked by small patches. But overall, game and strategies changes from previous patch. So hell yeah, buff grens and halbs lets see what will happen.

And @Diarouga, you are probably right from on your perspective but i think you overreact. This patch may become worst patch of EP but also best thing ever happen to EP, so try to be positive and constructive, idk about zoi but other people claim he is not a dick. Maybe he would listen your opinion about aztec that coyo shipment should not be buffed etc. Also Goodspeed probably wanted an heir who would shake the meta so that why you did not inheret his legacy...
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Sweden Gendarme
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12 Dec 2018, 16:48

The important thing to take away from this is that we all make mistakes. We are all humman.
Capitalization matters.https://pastebin.com/KEuaQCrR
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France [Armag] diarouga
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12 Dec 2018, 16:54

HUMMAN wrote:I like how zoi acts bolds and tweaks meta, i appreciate his vision. While there may be bad choices according to some, both design wise and balance, i think improvement is open. I would like EP meta game, instead of static game because:
-civs are different almost impossible to balance 196MU's on tp and non-tp maps.

No it's not, but we can try to make sure that every civ is good at something

-we have enough pro players to create meta

Well, the issue is that Zoi is doing the changes alone, so pro players aren't creating the meta.

-new playerbase maybe get interested in EP meta, a switch from RE?

No, people want a balanced version of the RE. New players won't come and some old players will leave

Cant know without trying, current EP is not too different from Re if this new patch sucks ESOC can always revert to previous patches.

You can. EP experience has shown me that when you do many changes, the game is super unbalanced. And reverting to the previous patch would mean that we wasted time playing on a shit patch.

Also even biggest games (dota, cs) when they introduce a new patch, lost of imba strats appear and these are tweaked by small patches. But overall, game and strategies changes from previous patch. So hell yeah, buff grens and halbs lets see what will happen.

And @Diarouga, you are probably right from on your perspective but i think you overreact. This patch may become worst patch of EP but also best thing ever happen to EP, so try to be positive and constructive, idk about zoi but other people claim he is not a dick.

I haven't said that he was a dick, just incompetent, which is different

Maybe he would listen your opinion about aztec that coyo shipment should not be buffed etc. Also Goodspeed probably wanted an heir who would shake the meta so that why you did not inheret his legacy...
Netherlands momuuu
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ESO: Jerom_

12 Dec 2018, 17:07

musketeer925 wrote:Being nice to people is generally how you get them to respect your opinion, yes.

It makes sense to me to have a mediator making decisions who isn't the highest level player, so that he can take feedback from other higher-level players without instituting his vision of the patch. Having a high-level player who is opinionated sounds like a way to get a patch that just represents that players' perspective of the game. A slightly lower level player can more neutrally mediate between a number of perspectives from other high level players.

It's sad if people respond to niceness rather than who knows more. Diarouga understands the game well and seems to have a reasonable and unbiased opinion on balance. His opinion should be respected regardless of what he says or how he acts, because his opinion is very close to the truth.
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Turkey HUMMAN
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12 Dec 2018, 17:07

@Diarouga

-About meta i meant after a drastical change, pros may exucute different bo's and strats which would exicite many people.

-The poeple who want balanced version of aoe are probably major+ players. Given current EP is way more balanced than RE patch, why the hell master sergeants are not installing EP? Also probably vanilla has the highest potential of balance, why aren't you defending vanilla patch? In my observation changes always encourage exploring new strats in games, which is essential. Sommpu look oh 500w TC'S and otto change? How about 3 TC boom? How about Sepoy 3 TC? Inter returns back to game trying new spanish gold, Garja goes on sonic mode with super fast sioux infantry(an example of imba property reverted) just because pure curiosaty invoked. Which is fun. Dont we like Aizamk's troll builds, Kaiser's merc laming?
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France [Armag] diarouga
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12 Dec 2018, 17:14

HUMMAN wrote:@Diarouga

-About meta i meant after a drastical change, pros may exucute different bo's and strats which would exicite many people.

-The poeple who want balanced version of aoe are probably major+ players. Given current EP is way more balanced than RE patch, why the hell master sergeants are not installing EP?

Because they're unaware of it, and because noone plays on the EP at this level.

Also probably vanilla has the highest potential of balance, why aren't you defending vanilla patch?

Because vanilla is less balanced than TAD, has less civs, and a worse quality of life.

In my observation changes always encourage exploring new strats in games, which is essential. Sommpu look oh 500w TC'S and otto change? How about 3 TC boom? How about Sepoy 3 TC? Inter returns back to game trying new spanish gold, Garja goes on sonic mode with super fast sioux infantry(an example of imba property reverted) just because pure curiosaty invoked. Which is fun. Dont we like Aizamk's troll builds, Kaiser's merc laming?
We decided 3 years ago that the EP should a balanced patch close to the RE, not a wtf patch where crazy strats are viable. Else we'd create 10 more civs for more entertainment. Of course if we can have balance and an interesting meta we'd go for it, but balance first.
Netherlands momuuu
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12 Dec 2018, 17:15

I must say, if that's the list of changes then I agree with diarouga. He understands balancing well and is usually right about the things he says - at least so it appears to me most of the time. Even if it's coated with some boldness, I think his opinion should always be considered.

It's a bit weird anyways that someone like zoi now has the final word on what goes through and what doesn't go through given that this affects so many players and might even influence aoe3DE.
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Turkey HUMMAN
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12 Dec 2018, 17:29

@Diarouga
I get you, if i were a competitive player i would not like an unbalanced patch what i try to show why zoi wants a "wtf" patch(also goodspeed probably) You kinda agree meta change is ok for the sake of interest in a certain balance level. So interest is also important. Now it comes to point how much of 'balance' and 'wtf' you desire in the patch, which is totaly subjective. I think middle ground is possible -like Kaiser said he talked with zoi etc.- with many people satisfied and few people dissapointed.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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12 Dec 2018, 18:08

HUMMAN wrote:@Diarouga
I get you, if i were a competitive player i would not like an unbalanced patch what i try to show why zoi wants a "wtf" patch(also goodspeed probably) You kinda agree meta change is ok for the sake of interest in a certain balance level. So interest is also important. Now it comes to point how much of 'balance' and 'wtf' you desire in the patch, which is totaly subjective. I think middle ground is possible -like Kaiser said he talked with zoi etc.- with many people satisfied and few people dissapointed.

It's not that easy.
You know, when you play a civilisation and it's impossible to win some MUs with it, it's not fun at all. As Jerom pointed out, the EP might well become the next patch in aoe3:DE, so we want something close to the RE, but with better balance.
Tbh if half of the community doesn't like the EP, I don't think it's going to become the official patch.

Anyway, the changes don't matter that much (though they're very bad), what matters is that there is no EP team, and that Zoi has the final word on the change list.
India Ashvin
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12 Dec 2018, 18:13

I doubt EP will become AOE3DE
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Serbia Atomiswave
Lancer
Posts: 794

12 Dec 2018, 18:31

I think Diarouga shouldn't be excluded from ep team. His knowledge about the game is tremendous, and should be put to good use.
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European Union scarm
Skirmisher
Posts: 182
ESO: Malebranche

12 Dec 2018, 18:47

Just my 50 cent: i like the EP Patch because it is a Patch, and not a Mod. The frontier between those is one that is easily trespassed. Trying to make as minimal of a change as possible is important imo, because if the EP is totally different from the original game and one has to learn civs and strategies anew, the cost of playing on EP in terms of time and attention one has to invest into it would be too big for me and maybe others that are trying to learn or get better. While i truely appreciate the attempt to make stuff like spies or priests more viable, since i am more of an creative or Johnny Type player, i have to say that if i wanted to have more available, viable content i'd just play NE or WoL for fun. Variety in that kind of sense isn't what i personally think the EP should achieve. A new player should be able to with one gasp see all the notable changes done from RE and be able to memorize the most relevant ones imho.

TL;dr: It is important to keep the amount of changes to a minimum for accessibility and to stay true to the identity of EP as Patch, not a Mod
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Sweden Gendarme
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12 Dec 2018, 19:11

Ashvin wrote:I doubt EP will become AOE3DE
But VP could become!
Capitalization matters.https://pastebin.com/KEuaQCrR
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Somalia somppukunkku
Jaeger
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Posts: 2532

12 Dec 2018, 19:14

Why not just:

1. Make top 20 active player section for forum
2. Anyone from those can suggest changes for a civ
3. Suggested changes go to vote for 2 weeks
4. For example, 70% majority is required to to make the change real.
5. Profit?!?!
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When I win, it's with homo, illegal and wrong strats.
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Poland pecelot
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12 Dec 2018, 19:19

h o w e x a c t l y a m I a r r o g a n t
I see a pikeman and I want it painted grey :geek:
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No Flag 91
Dragoon
Donator 01
Posts: 464

12 Dec 2018, 19:44

It's not hard to see why you're kicked lol
Sweden Challe
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ESO: Challe

12 Dec 2018, 22:18

remove Urumis plox
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Sweden Gendarme
Gendarme
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ESO: Gendarme

12 Dec 2018, 22:39

Challe for Community Team!
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United States of America n0el
ESOC Business Team
Posts: 3218
ESO: n0eL

12 Dec 2018, 23:26

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
HUMMAN wrote:@Diarouga
I get you, if i were a competitive player i would not like an unbalanced patch what i try to show why zoi wants a "wtf" patch(also goodspeed probably) You kinda agree meta change is ok for the sake of interest in a certain balance level. So interest is also important. Now it comes to point how much of 'balance' and 'wtf' you desire in the patch, which is totaly subjective. I think middle ground is possible -like Kaiser said he talked with zoi etc.- with many people satisfied and few people dissapointed.

It's not that easy.
You know, when you play a civilisation and it's impossible to win some MUs with it, it's not fun at all. As Jerom pointed out, the EP might well become the next patch in aoe3:DE, so we want something close to the RE, but with better balance.
Tbh if half of the community doesn't like the EP, I don't think it's going to become the official patch.

Anyway, the changes don't matter that much (though they're very bad), what matters is that there is no EP team, and that Zoi has the final word on the change list.


We don’t want something close to the RE. If EP becomes the official DE patch, now is the time to make the game attractive to new players and people coming back. If we make it an enhanced RE patch it’s a disaster from the start.
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Sweden Gendarme
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12 Dec 2018, 23:40

:hleung: :hleung: :hleung:

Tell us what what Relic has told you! You can trust the NDAs with your fellow ESOCians.
Capitalization matters.https://pastebin.com/KEuaQCrR

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