What I know about the current EP team

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Netherlands edeholland
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Re: What I know about the current EP team

Post by edeholland »

n0el wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
HUMMAN wrote:@Diarouga
I get you, if i were a competitive player i would not like an unbalanced patch what i try to show why zoi wants a "wtf" patch(also goodspeed probably) You kinda agree meta change is ok for the sake of interest in a certain balance level. So interest is also important. Now it comes to point how much of 'balance' and 'wtf' you desire in the patch, which is totaly subjective. I think middle ground is possible -like Kaiser said he talked with zoi etc.- with many people satisfied and few people dissapointed.

It's not that easy.
You know, when you play a civilisation and it's impossible to win some MUs with it, it's not fun at all. As Jerom pointed out, the EP might well become the next patch in aoe3:DE, so we want something close to the RE, but with better balance.
Tbh if half of the community doesn't like the EP, I don't think it's going to become the official patch.

Anyway, the changes don't matter that much (though they're very bad), what matters is that there is no EP team, and that Zoi has the final word on the change list.


We donā€™t want something close to the RE. If EP becomes the official DE patch, now is the time to make the game attractive to new players and people coming back. If we make it an enhanced RE patch itā€™s a disaster from the start.

We don't want something close to RE? When was this decided? And who did that? Doesn't like something Goodspeed would say.
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Re: What I know about the current EP team

Post by Gendarme »

It was decided this instant. "We" refers to n0el and his followersā€”the rest of ESOC.
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: What I know about the current EP team

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Post by n0el »

We as in the community. Why would we want the status quo aka a game on constant decline catered to the die hard community? Makes no sense.

In concept, the original EP vision was good. There was no possibility of the EP becoming an official patch and we wanted to bind the community. Well, even that failed as the Japanese community thought it was bad. Now, the situation has drastically changed. There is a game update coming, and with that, a strong chance the EP becomes official. In this case, as lovers of AOE3, our interest should be in DE being a success, should it not?
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Re: What I know about the current EP team

Post by gibson »

Assuming DE actually happens, which is a pretty big assumption
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Re: What I know about the current EP team

Post by n0el »

Itā€™s not
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Re: What I know about the current EP team

Post by Gendarme »

Has "the community" expressed this, or is it merely an assumption (or perhaps a not-so-innocent decision) of yours? The game is on a decline due to the RE patch being poorly designed rather than the game being unmaintained and infested with cheaters and bugs? Seems like you didn't spend more than a few seconds reflecting over this.
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: What I know about the current EP team

Post by n0el »

Iā€™ve reflected on it more than I care to admit.
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Re: What I know about the current EP team

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Post by Mitoe »

Personally I'm fine with changing some of the stuff that's lesser used in this game, such as Grenadiers, Flail Elephants, Spies, etc.

These units shouldn't be instant-losses when you build them, but I think buffs to these units should be very small: small enough that they're not complete garbage, maybe they're even an option in some very specific cases, but they shouldn't be good enough that you have to use them every single game, or whenever that specific situation that they are viable in arises. This is where the disagreements are coming from, I think. People are afraid that changes to these units will affect the game too much, which is fair. I think we should change them, but those changes should be tiny, quality of life changes, not super-buffs that make the units a must-use in every game or even a reasonable number of games--at the end of the day, that would maybe not feel like AoE3.

I think small changes though go a long way towards making AoE3 a better game overall without really breaking anything or changing the way the game feels.
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Re: What I know about the current EP team

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Post by n0el »

Bingo...

As @Interjection would say...the explorative experience of using cards and units is very attractive. In the current state, unfortunately, we donā€™t have that...and some would argue (not sure I agree or not) that the current EP has pushed it to a more standardized state
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Re: What I know about the current EP team

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Post by Gendarme »

The community has been, and still is, more focused on tournaments and new maps rather than balance. It took two years to nerf sepoy HP and merely mentioning it still triggers a PTSD response from many India players. We're not really in a position to randomly change grenadiers and flail elephants and keep telling ourselves that it won't ruin the game. Let's not be the victims of our own hubris. If you're serious about this, make it a mission to create a proper patch and playtest every change extensively. Present data and analyses thereof. Knee-jerking dreamed-up design changes into AoE3DE only to market it as some buzzword-infested community-driven remaster is incompetence at its height.
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: What I know about the current EP team

Post by n0el »

Gendarme wrote:The community has been, and still is, more focused on tournaments and new maps rather than balance. It took two years to nerf sepoy HP and merely mentioning it still triggers a PTSD response from many India players. We're not really in a position to randomly change grenadiers and flail elephants and keep telling ourselves that it won't ruin the game. Let's not be the victims of our own hubris. If you're serious about this, make it a mission to create a proper patch and playtest every change extensively. Present data and analyses thereof. Knee-jerking dreamed-up design changes into AoE3DE only to market it as some buzzword-infested community-driven remaster is incompetence at its height.

I agree. Good thing we have a nice playground here to test in!
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Re: What I know about the current EP team

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Post by EAGLEMUT »

gibson wrote:Assuming DE actually happens, which is a pretty big assumption

Doesn't seem like a big assumption to me, MS are frequently confirming that both AoE2:DE and AoE3:DE are in development. Whether they're aiming to use EP balance is another thing, however - don't know about that. As far as I'm aware, some sort of user patch was used for the AoE1:DE.
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Re: What I know about the current EP team

Post by pecelot »

the entire fan patch balance was adopted into 1:DE
I think
I mean I'm pretty sure but I can't find proof
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Re: What I know about the current EP team

Post by edeholland »

Mitoe wrote:Personally I'm fine with changing some of the stuff that's lesser used in this game, such as Grenadiers, Flail Elephants, Spies, etc.

These units shouldn't be instant-losses when you build them, but I think buffs to these units should be very small: small enough that they're not complete garbage, maybe they're even an option in some very specific cases, but they shouldn't be good enough that you have to use them every single game, or whenever that specific situation that they are viable in arises. This is where the disagreements are coming from, I think. People are afraid that changes to these units will affect the game too much, which is fair. I think we should change them, but those changes should be tiny, quality of life changes, not super-buffs that make the units a must-use in every game or even a reasonable number of games--at the end of the day, that would maybe not feel like AoE3.

I think small changes though go a long way towards making AoE3 a better game overall without really breaking anything or changing the way the game feels.

I don't really think the changes will affect the game too much, I rather think that our changes are only interesting for the top 1% of all players. If we want EP to succeed as a AoE3:DE patch, we should focus on how to attract the masses of players. Most players never reach the level where 120f or 125f for a coureur the bois matters.
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Re: What I know about the current EP team

Post by Kaiserklein »

If it doesn't matter for the lower level players, then they won't mind if we change it. Plus it sometimes matters because they might watch some tourney streams, and no one wants to watch unbalanced tourneys with only mirrors etc.
Btw, even lower level players easily realize that otto is super easy and op, that old han or jinetes are broken in team late game, etc. So there's definitely things to change balance wise, even for that level.
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Re: What I know about the current EP team

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Post by Goodspeed »

When we started it made sense to stay as close to RE as possible. This was, in fact, a requirement in order to get a lot of key people on board with the idea of a new patch in the first place. The reasons were:
- We wanted to make it easier for people to switch from RE to EP and back
- It was easier to keep track of balance that way, since we already had a good understanding of RE patch balance
- We didn't have the time/manpower to discuss and test so many changes
- Many changes can make it hard to filter the significant changes from the patch notes

I tried to stick with this philosophy but I think it's time to breathe some fresh air into the game in every possible way. The above arguments still stand, but on the other hand there have been complaints about a stale meta, and that will happen if all you're doing is balancing. Take SC2 as an example: They frequently make big game-changing patches not just to improve balance but also to make room for new strategic ideas to pop up in the meta.

Another reason to explore more changes is the possibility that the DE people ask for our advice. I would if I were them. In that case we shouldn't give them advice on how to fix RE patch, but advice on how to fix the whole game. We don't have to hold onto RE patch as the base, since it will eventually be obsolete. We can explore design changes that are sorely needed in AoE3, for example we can actually try to fix water and make many irrelevant units relevant again. The time we have before DE is a time to test changes and come to as good of an understanding as we can of how to make the best possible AoE3. RE patch certainly isn't that, and by extension neither is the current EP.

@zoom has this vision. He did from the beginning, but I held him back because we had the mandate to stay close to RE patch. Recently the community as well as most of the people involved with the EP process have been coming around about this, so it's a very good time for Zoi to take over. He's a perfectionist, is very knowledgeable about the game, has a good grasp on game design and knows how to combine the opinions of various top players into one coherent patch. He has been doing most of the work for a while already, to be honest. For me he has always been indispensable quality control and a stream of fresh ideas, most of them good.

@[Armag] diarouga You have also been important to the process. You understand the game better than most, and your opinion is valuable. But if you can't work with Zoi by giving him constructive feedback then I can't blame him for cutting you out of the process. I warned you about this, as you mentioned in your OP. I gave this project to Zoi because I believe he is the best man for the job, and you should try to work with him on it. I'm sure if you're willing, so is he.

I look forward to the next patch. Balance may worsen if more drastic changes are explored, but long term the patch will improve either way.
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Re: What I know about the current EP team

Post by deleted_user0 »

Meh. Zoi rekt grenadiers already. Even though ive made multiple posts on how to make them a useful unit. Zoi has always been too focused on mathematical and theorethical approach to the game
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Re: What I know about the current EP team

Post by momuuu »

n0el wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
HUMMAN wrote:@Diarouga
I get you, if i were a competitive player i would not like an unbalanced patch what i try to show why zoi wants a "wtf" patch(also goodspeed probably) You kinda agree meta change is ok for the sake of interest in a certain balance level. So interest is also important. Now it comes to point how much of 'balance' and 'wtf' you desire in the patch, which is totaly subjective. I think middle ground is possible -like Kaiser said he talked with zoi etc.- with many people satisfied and few people dissapointed.

It's not that easy.
You know, when you play a civilisation and it's impossible to win some MUs with it, it's not fun at all. As Jerom pointed out, the EP might well become the next patch in aoe3:DE, so we want something close to the RE, but with better balance.
Tbh if half of the community doesn't like the EP, I don't think it's going to become the official patch.

Anyway, the changes don't matter that much (though they're very bad), what matters is that there is no EP team, and that Zoi has the final word on the change list.


We donā€™t want something close to the RE. If EP becomes the official DE patch, now is the time to make the game attractive to new players and people coming back. If we make it an enhanced RE patch itā€™s a disaster from the start.

Whats so bad about RE?
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Re: What I know about the current EP team

Post by lemmings121 »

momuuu wrote:Whats so bad about RE?


its half luck based, if you get a random mu/map, your odds of winning are random from 30%-70%
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Re: What I know about the current EP team

Post by SteakgrillĆ© »

what about EP smackdown ? I thought the smackdown version of EP would be the one where funcy stuff would be tested
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Re: What I know about the current EP team

Post by Gendarme »

Funcy funnu stuff
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: What I know about the current EP team

Post by edeholland »

SteakgrillƩ wrote:what about EP smackdown ? I thought the smackdown version of EP would be the one where funcy stuff would be tested

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=15901
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=15978

Yeah, more fancy stuff will be tested on Smackdown Patch, with "fun" stuff like starting in colonial and "serious" stuff like changing the politicians.
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Re: What I know about the current EP team

Post by n0el »

momuuu wrote:
n0el wrote:
Show hidden quotes


We donā€™t want something close to the RE. If EP becomes the official DE patch, now is the time to make the game attractive to new players and people coming back. If we make it an enhanced RE patch itā€™s a disaster from the start.

Whats so bad about RE?


There's 30% of the game (politicians, units, cards, treasures, natives, etc...) that are worthless.
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Re: What I know about the current EP team

Post by momuuu »

n0el wrote:
momuuu wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Whats so bad about RE?


There's 30% of the game (politicians, units, cards, treasures, natives, etc...) that are worthless.

And why is that bad?
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Re: What I know about the current EP team

Post by edeholland »

n0el wrote:
momuuu wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Whats so bad about RE?


There's 30% of the game (politicians, units, cards, treasures, natives, etc...) that are worthless.

Worthless according to who(m)?

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