ZP: The Zoi Patch

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United States of America Cometk
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by Cometk »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Cometk wrote:saying no tp maps shouldn’t exist is like saying no water maps shouldn’t exist

No, because no TP maps break the balance, while water maps add viable options. Also water maps add something (the sea), while no TP maps lack something (TPs).

Likewise, maps without hunts ,maps without gold mines or maps where you can't build a rax shouldn't exist.

ok, i understand what you mean now; you’re speaking from the perspective of ESOC patch philosophy which is that trade post maps are the baseline standard for playing the game. what i am disagreeing with in reality is not you but the patch philosophy, my mistake
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by edeholland »

Cometk wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Cometk wrote:saying no tp maps shouldn’t exist is like saying no water maps shouldn’t exist

No, because no TP maps break the balance, while water maps add viable options. Also water maps add something (the sea), while no TP maps lack something (TPs).

Likewise, maps without hunts ,maps without gold mines or maps where you can't build a rax shouldn't exist.

ok, i understand what you mean now; you’re speaking from the perspective of ESOC patch philosophy which is that trade post maps are the baseline standard for playing the game. what i am disagreeing with in reality is not you but the patch philosophy, my mistake

I wanna poll who still agrees with the patch philosophy &who has better ideas and who is more content with EP4/EP5 than EP3 and why, because so far I have seen mostly negative comments. Perhaps those who are content don't speak up in this thread.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Cometk wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Cometk wrote:saying no tp maps shouldn’t exist is like saying no water maps shouldn’t exist

No, because no TP maps break the balance, while water maps add viable options. Also water maps add something (the sea), while no TP maps lack something (TPs).

Likewise, maps without hunts ,maps without gold mines or maps where you can't build a rax shouldn't exist.

ok, i understand what you mean now; you’re speaking from the perspective of ESOC patch philosophy which is that trade post maps are the baseline standard for playing the game. what i am disagreeing with in reality is not you but the patch philosophy, my mistake

I'm 100% for this patch philosophy.
I don't know if it's still the patch philosophy though, maybe we should ask our new EP leader @zoom .
Do you still want to balance civs around high resource TP maps, or do you think that, on top of nerfing semi ff builds, and buffing bow/pike, we should make civs which don't rely on TP stronger, in order to make sure that semi ff is never viable?
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

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Post by deleted_user0 »

ep shouldve been bugfixing and mapfixing. With perhaps at most 10 broken techs or cards in the game (aka slightly tweak old han, abus stats or iro start crates etc.) The rest was just totally unnessecary. And even that maybe a step too far already, as you just start a neverending cycle of changes. So probably just bugfixing and mapfixing.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

umeu wrote:ep shouldve been bugfixing and mapfixing. With perhaps at most 10 broken techs or cards in the game (aka slightly tweak old han, abus stats or iro start crates etc.) The rest was just totally unnessecary. And even that maybe a step too far already, as you just start a neverending cycle of changes. So probably just bugfixing and mapfixing.

Yea.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by momuuu »

Zoi and goodspeed are on the record stating EP balances for TP no water maps.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by gh0st »

umeu wrote:ep shouldve been bugfixing and mapfixing. With perhaps at most 10 broken techs or cards in the game (aka slightly tweak old han, abus stats or iro start crates etc.) The rest was just totally unnessecary. And even that maybe a step too far already, as you just start a neverending cycle of changes. So probably just bugfixing and mapfixing.

this
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by Warno »

@Diarouga I have seen you make a few threads on this topic.

You should make your own patch notes and post a topic with yours compared to this patch - Have the PR30+ players vote on it and see what happens.
If they vote in your favour then you are on to something.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Warno wrote:@Diarouga I have seen you make a few threads on this topic.

You should make your own patch notes and post a topic with yours compared to this patch - Have the PR30+ players vote on it and see what happens.
If they vote in your favour then you are on to something.

I made my patch notes in another thread.
You can make a poll if you want, or ask @deleted_user5 but I don't really think that the community's opinion matters that much because most will just follow ESOC without considering the changes.

What would be interesting is something like "Would you consider leaving the EP with the rouga notes? And with the Zoi notes?"
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by deleted_user0 »

Are our only options really between Zoi's patch or Diarouga's patch only? Sigh. Atleast some of the Zoi's changes (i.e nerfing fast age) was discussed in some topic.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by Warno »

somppukunkku wrote:Are our only options really between Zoi's patch or Diarouga's patch only? Sigh. Atleast some of the Zoi's changes (i.e nerfing fast age) was discussed in some topic.


Like we talked about in the twitch chat the ideal situation would be some form of democratic approach:

Take the top 20 players - each player proposes one change - each player votes on 20 changes.


The small details of the patch only matter at high levels anyways, at my level or lower these details have little to no effect on outcome.
I am just happy that I have a patch that people want to keep updating.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Having breeze on your side is another reason why you can't be taken seriously


I was just making a joke about breeze who always makes polls.

I don't know why you don't want me to be taken seriously lol. You keep repeating that, are you actually afraid because some guys here take me seriously?
Not only is it offensive to me and breeze, but it's also offensive to the people who share my opinion.

From what I understood, you contributed to make these patch notes, and you have a biased point of view on how the game should be (we all do, but I've never said that TWC and TAD civs were broken, nor did I call any civ a gay civ).
You're looking more and more like garja with these comments lol.
Why shouldn't I be allowed to have my biased principles too?

As far as I remember , when I used to contribute to the patch and you criticized the changes, I never said that your opinion shouldn't be taken seriously, I'd expect you to do the same.

Also, if we use authority arguments, it's not like a patch made by Zoi can be taken seriously Kappa.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by Kaiserklein »

Just saying that breeze agreeing with you invalidates your opinion basically, since he's wrong from a to z and the only reason why he's arguing against the patch is because he's afraid of being pr 28 again if walls get nerfed. I couldn't care less if it's offensive to him. I know you were just making a joke but it just made me think about that point.

I didn't directly contribute to the patch notes, I just gave my opinion to zoi, like others did, and then he took decisions. I can tell you, if I took the decisions, the notes wouldn't look like that.

I do have a biased point of view on how the game should be, but so do you. More than me actually. Quoting you: "No tp maps shouldn't exist". That's about the most biased thing I've ever heard. You actually keep saying "x should be like this and y should be like that" in an almost Garjesque way. And I'm just tired of seeing you and breeze spamming and crying everywhere about the upcoming patch.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by P i k i l i c »

Wait a little and we could see more patch versions like back in the days, VP but also GS-P, Garja-P, Darwin-P, WC-P, Dsy-P and more
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=12442&start=200#p263560
viewtopic.php?f=314&t=10638&start=225#p263597
Consider not the one who speaks the truth, but the truth that is said

:hmm: AoE logic :hmm:
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

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Post by WickedCossack »

I do like the idea of rolling back unsuccessful changes to keep the patch simpler.

So for example rather than changing zamb range you revert the house buff and go from there.

Otherwise the zamb nerf is purely in the patch to compensate for the house buff they were given. Well unless anyone is of the opinion that zamb range is too OP, but to be honest I don't think I've heard anyone ever express that opinion before. :P
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by deleted_user »

umeu wrote:ep shouldve been bugfixing and mapfixing. With perhaps at most 10 broken techs or cards in the game (aka slightly tweak old han, abus stats or iro start crates etc.) The rest was just totally unnessecary. And even that maybe a step too far already, as you just start a neverending cycle of changes. So probably just bugfixing and mapfixing.

%100 agree with you legendary hussar umeu ;)
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

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Post by Mitoe »

The level of overreaction is insane. Everyone needs to calm down and bit and just wait for the changes to be made before providing your opinion. It's going to go through a beta period, maybe even several beta periods: this means that changes can and will be made to the current list. Potentially very frequently, if things don't work out as intended. No one wants to make changes that will result in the game not feeling like AoE3, and if that turns out to be the case, then I'm certain they will be scrapped.

Just have some patience.

I don't understand this argument about avoiding changes that "change the meta" either. Most of the time all I hear are complaints about the meta. If you don't want the meta to differ much from RE, then why make a patch in the first place? I think it's more important that civilizations maintain more-or-less the same identity as they do on RE patch, with slightly different power curves. Right now, I think most civilizations do feel pretty close to the same as RE, with the only exceptions being Sioux and maybe Iroquois or Portuguese.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by deleted_user »

Hey, I don't care!
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

WickedCossack wrote:I do like the idea of rolling back unsuccessful changes to keep the patch simpler.

So for example rather than changing zamb range you revert the house buff and go from there.

Otherwise the zamb nerf is purely in the patch to compensate for the house buff they were given. Well unless anyone is of the opinion that zamb range is too OP, but to be honest I don't think I've heard anyone ever express that opinion before. :P

Yea, no need to make the patch further from the RE.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

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Post by edeholland »

Mitoe wrote: If you don't want the meta to differ much from RE, then why make a patch in the first place?

Well, to fix bugs, cheats and maps. The prime reason for me to want a patch was all the Iro/Otto we saw in tourneys. That could be fixed with minimal changes.

EDIT: not saying having another reason for EP is not reasonable or realistic, but I think for me and for more people this was the initial reason we "needed" a patch.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Kaiserklein wrote:Just saying that breeze agreeing with you invalidates your opinion basically, since he's wrong from a to z and the only reason why he's arguing against the patch is because he's afraid of being pr 28 again if walls get nerfed. I couldn't care less if it's offensive to him. I know you were just making a joke but it just made me think about that point.

I didn't directly contribute to the patch notes, I just gave my opinion to zoi, like others did, and then he took decisions. I can tell you, if I took the decisions, the notes wouldn't look like that.

I do have a biased point of view on how the game should be, but so do you. More than me actually. Quoting you: "No tp maps shouldn't exist". That's about the most biased thing I've ever heard. You actually keep saying "x should be like this and y should be like that" in an almost Garjesque way. And I'm just tired of seeing you and breeze spamming and crying everywhere about the upcoming patch.

I'm just saying that a statement like "you shouldn't be taken seriously" makes no sense when I'm a guy who's been involved in the EP since the start, and who has a huge knowledge about the current meta.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

edeholland wrote:
Mitoe wrote: If you don't want the meta to differ much from RE, then why make a patch in the first place?

Well, to fix bugs, cheats and maps. The prime reason for me to want a patch was all the Iro/Otto we saw in tourneys. That could be fixed with minimal changes.

This.
We wanted Iro/Otto to be playable in tourney, and we wanted to be able to play rated on new maps.

When I think about it actually, I'd maybe want to go back to EP 1.0.
I remember that 2. 5 years ago, H2O was satisfied with the EP 2.0 and didn't want an EP 3.0.
I'm just feeling the same atm. I just don't want a new patch. We all started to play on the RE, and we all loved aoe3 on the RE.

What's the point of making controversial changes, which only half of the community is going to like, while you could keep the EP close to the RE and make everybody happy?
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by Mitoe »

Yes, I would be totally happy with Port/Dutch/Russia being unplayable civs, China having an age 4 win-button, and Bow Riders killing literally everything.

Look, I understand that there are a lot of changes that people don't like. There are some I don't like either. I agree that there are some changes that should just be reverted if they haven't worked as intended (e.g. Teepees), but come on. You're overreacting for sure. The game really isn't all that different from RE. If it feels all that different from RE, it is mostly because of the maps and less because of the changes to individual civilizations, IMO.

We can discuss how best to make the correct changes in time, this includes potentially reverting changes, but throwing a fit about the entire patch and philosophies and flaming people for having different opinions is getting us nowhere. Let's wait until the beta comes out, play some games, and go from there. You can't make progress towards what you want like this, you need to take smaller steps first.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by Kaiserklein »

@[Armag] diarouga You're not answering half of my post.

And what else than "you can't be taken seriously" can I tell you tbh? Arguing is useless since you decided that you have almost perfect knowledge and there's no way to make you change your opinion. You've always been extremely stubborn, sorry to say that. I know I myself can be quite a dickhead sometimes but still, discussing with you just feels fruitless because you just consider you know the absolute truth, the way things are, the way they should be. I know you hate Garja... Well, to me, you're acting exactly in the same way as he is.
Trying to argue is not leading us anywhere, so instead I'm trying to show you why you can't be taken seriously, for example because you're saying that no tp maps should be removed.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Mitoe wrote:Yes, I would be totally happy with Port/Dutch/Russia being unplayable civs.

Port and Dutch got buffed in the EP 1.0, and Russia is totally playable (currently there's no difference between RE and EP Russia).

Anyway, I think people should re-read the FP poll, because it tells a lot about what people wanted: a close to the RE patch.

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