ZP: The Zoi Patch

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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by scarm »

I think both sides are kinda not argueing against each other but more so in a vacuum and focussing too much on details. IMHO Diarouga is right about bringing up concerns like changing the game too much, arguements like accessibility and integration of other playerbases have already been brought up multiple times, so i think you know what it boils down too. Those things should be taken into consideration when developing the patch. On the other hand it is also very valid that without testing, one can't really know if those proposed changes really fall into the category of too complex or too steep changes. I actually think you guys are all kinda on the same page, mostly, but this discussion is kinda too emotional and heated up rn for it to matter.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by momuuu »

Mitoe wrote:
momuuu wrote:
Mitoe wrote:If you don't want the meta to differ much from RE, then why make a patch in the first place?

Because meta and balance are different things?

Mitoe wrote:
I think it's more important that civilizations maintain more-or-less the same identity as they do on RE patch, with slightly different power curves. Right now, I think most civilizations do feel pretty close to the same as RE, with the only exceptions being Sioux and maybe Iroquois or Portuguese.

So when is india getting their iconic sepoy rush back?

Dude. Everyone still makes sepoy all the time.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

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Post by Kynesie »

I think it can be good to re define EP goal. IF it s balance RE, there is too much changes, and often too big ... but if it s try to become the official AOE3:DE patch, we should make a lot more : change all the useless politicians and cards to create new strategic options,(+ new civs?)

About EP6 beta, i doubt ep team can/will test enought all changes, so whether they are useful or not, good or bad , they will be EP6
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by deleted_user0 »

please don't make new civs when we can't even balance existing ones...
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Mitoe wrote:"Fun" is not really what I personally hope to achieve, although it is still important. Apparently you don't agree that the game should be fun? :hmm:

We want a patch where all civs are viable. Arguably, we have achieved this--or mostly achieved it--by now. From here, the goal should be to broaden the versatility of civs, slowly, and not drastically. This means that most civs should at least have some options on TP maps, non-TP maps, and on water. Obviously perfect balance here is impossible, but we can do better: I know we can. Ideally, every civ should at least be playable in the lategame as well, as this makes win conditions more reliant on skill, rather than civilization, although it is important that civs still differ in strength at different stages of the game.

Ideally, the end product requires interactions between players throughout all stages of the game. I see people complain all the time about how AoE3 is often about massing units for 1 big fight, and whoever wins the fight wins the game. How do you avoid this? Making scouting and adaptation more important is a good start, and you cannot make that important without providing room for civs to adapt to different situations. Perhaps making win conditions less obvious, but provide more of them: you want to stack your win conditions in order to win a game. How do you accomplish this?


Take a matchup like Aztec vs China, for example. In this matchup, it's completely unwinnable in age 2 for China, and equally unwinnable for Aztec if China reaches age 3 with their economy and infrastructure mostly intact. Aztec's win condition is obvious: prevent China from reaching Fortress, or cripple them so hard that they cannot do anything once they get there. China's win condition--obviously--is to avoid this. This makes the matchup so one-dimensional that it's not even worth scouting by either player, so you simply rush as hard as possible as Aztec, or FF/turtle as much as possible as China. There are no adaptations to be made, nothing to really think about. To fix this, you have to make China's Colonial a little bit better (in this case, it's easy, just make sure that Qiang Pikemen actually counter coyote runners to the same capacity that they counter cavalry, which at the moment they do not), and Aztec's Fortress follow ups better, but you maintain some of China's weaknesses in Colonial and some of Aztec's weaknesses in Fortress.

With this done, it becomes much more important to know what your opponent is doing. Suddenly, it matters to Aztec whether or not China is staying age 2 because it determines how fast they need to play the matchup.

Is China FFing? Should I delay 5v to get more units out earlier while he's aging? Is he staying age 2? Should I do a slightly slower build to get more units out during the times he chooses to age with this semi-FF?

Equally, as Aztec's Fortress options are better, China needs to consider that staying age 2 could result in getting punished by an early Fortress timing or something, and need to actually scout to see what Aztec's plan is.

Suddenly, Aztec has multiple win conditions: (1) Abuse China's Colonial weaknesses as much as possible before following them into the Fortress Age, and (2) Either survive China's Fortress power spikes or outplay them on the map in some capacity. At which point the next stage of the game also becomes relevant. Before, it would be okay: Did he take significant damage from my rush? Yes (China resigns) or No (Aztec resigns).


And there are lots of matchups like this. Even mirrors would benefit from these kinds of changes, as there's no longer a clear "best build" in all situations that you must adhere to. In a Brit mirror, for example, maybe you should be concerned that your opponent could actually go for some sneaky semi-FF or something, and have to actually check out his build, instead of trusting that muskets + map control is going to win you the game against anything.

At the end of the day this will make the game more about skill and game knowledge and less about massing up with the same build order every game and hoping that you can win that big fight this time around. And, yes, hopefully the game will be more fun as a result.


I don't think any of this is unachievable. Perfection? Unattainable, certainly. But doing better than we currently have? Absolutely.

And so I see no reason to stop here. If it means treading more carefully with our future changes than in the past, then so be it: we can slow to a walk instead of a run--a crawl, if we must. If it means that we stop and take the time to redo some unpopular and arguably unsuccessful changes, then that's great too, but if you want to reach that point then you need to be less pessimisticly hateful and more optimistically open-minded and patient.


1) Making the game fun is of course a goal, but it can't the the EP goal, because it's just not objective. What's fun for me isn't fun for you, that's what I meant.

2) I'd argue that the EP 1.0 achieved the civ equality, and it's of course achieved by now.
Your opinion about versatility makes sense, we can do better, but we won't ever reach a good balance on both TP and no TP maps. Anyway, if you have some ideas to improve the situations, it's nice, but we need to define the EP policy first.
That's the big issue atm to be honest, we all have a different point of view about how the game should be, and that's why we disagree.

3) Your example works very well when you only consider China vs Aztecs, but the issue is that this kind of change also affects all the other MUs, and while you might give both civs 2 viable options in this specific MU, it will unbalance another MU because Aztec's fortress play will be better.
Also you should know that you can't realistically make Aztec good enough in fortress to hold China. The timing with China is just too strong, and even the best fortress civs can barely hold it they don't make damage in age 2.
I'm not saying that your plan for the EP is bad, I'm just saying that it's far from being that easy.

Anyway, as I said multiple times in this topic, what worries me is having Zoi for EP leader, and having no EP plan.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by Mitoe »

I donā€™t know if our points of view really differ all that much, or if everyone in the community just canā€™t trust each other to make responsible changes.

About #3, yeah itā€™s not necessarily going to be easy.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Mitoe wrote:I donā€™t know if our points of view really differ all that much, or if everyone in the community just canā€™t trust each other to make responsible changes.

About #3, yeah itā€™s not necessarily going to be easy.

Well, the patch team (although it doesn't exist), really needs to have a plan. And the community can trust a team to make responsible changes, not just one person who doesn't play the game anymore.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

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Post by princeofkabul »

Small changes, if pointed in the right direction opens up more strategies = causes people to finally scout in this damn game. and not just sit in base execute their bos = we have a rts game which demands constant interaction like in sc2 = profit!
then again how to do this? i don't know nor care enough to really take part in the balance discussions anymore.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

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Post by deleted_user0 »

@princeofkabul
do you want to take part in balance discussions tonight?

@Hazza54321
Do you have any comments on tournament betting from a few months ago?
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by deleted_user0 »

@princeofkabul for EP leader.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by kami_ryu »

@princeofkabul I like your insight
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by spanky4ever »

hmm. I thought the changes on this last patch where kind of small?? But all in all they could seem big? But are they though? Before flaming Zoi in this manner, do you really think they are game-changing?
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

iwillspankyou wrote:hmm. I thought the changes on this last patch where kind of small?? But all in all they could seem big? But are they though? Before flaming Zoi in this manner, do you really think they are game-changing?

They are game-changing for sure. Reaching the 3rd age 10 sec later means that in some MUs you won't be able to semi ff anymore, and not all civs are good in colonial.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

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Post by Goodspeed »

Give the kid a chance...
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by spanky4ever »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:hmm. I thought the changes on this last patch where kind of small?? But all in all they could seem big? But are they though? Before flaming Zoi in this manner, do you really think they are game-changing?

They are game-changing for sure. Reaching the 3rd age 10 sec later means that in some MUs you won't be able to semi ff anymore, and not all civs are good in colonial.

and what is Zoi answer to all this? Nothing as far as I can see. Guess he is taking notes? :love:
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by Kaiserklein »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:hmm. I thought the changes on this last patch where kind of small?? But all in all they could seem big? But are they though? Before flaming Zoi in this manner, do you really think they are game-changing?

They are game-changing for sure. Reaching the 3rd age 10 sec later means that in some MUs you won't be able to semi ff anymore, and not all civs are good in colonial.


That's exaggerated, 10s is not that much and it doesn't make the semi ff not viable anymore lol...
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by Hazza54321 »

i think its because he hasnt been around recently enough to see how 1 dimensional gameplay is nowadays
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by Kaiserklein »

I think diarouga is just perfectly happy with semi ff stuff every game.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Kaiserklein wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:hmm. I thought the changes on this last patch where kind of small?? But all in all they could seem big? But are they though? Before flaming Zoi in this manner, do you really think they are game-changing?

They are game-changing for sure. Reaching the 3rd age 10 sec later means that in some MUs you won't be able to semi ff anymore, and not all civs are good in colonial.


That's exaggerated, 10s is not that much and it doesn't make the semi ff not viable anymore lol...

10s is not that much? You know, Spain beats otto if it can age with 15v, and lose if it has to age with 16, and the difference is only 25 sec. 10sec is huge, really.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by Kaiserklein »

You're using one specific mu as an example. The point is that in the classic semi ff games, being up 10s later sucks of course, but it's really not game losing... Semi ff is still gonna be strong even with 50s exiled prince.
Or then you can just resign whenever opponent gets a 90f treasure lol, or whenever you mismacro and gather 100g too much for your age up. Bullshit
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Except 90f isn't 10sec.
It means that colonial musk/huss timings, which are already viable, will be too scary.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by gibson »

With the current skill level in this game 10 seconds isn't gonna make a huge difference at all. Although I can already see people blaming it when they make 50 other mistakes throughout the course of the game. Easier to blame the game than to accept the fact that you're bad I guess.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

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Post by deleted_user0 »

everyone shucks at this game except gibshooon
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by spanky4ever »

gibson wrote:With the current skill level in this game 10 seconds isn't gonna make a huge difference at all. Although I can already see people blaming it when they make 50 other mistakes throughout the course of the game. Easier to blame the game than to accept the fact that you're bad I guess.

skill level are super I think. :P think some old players would have hard time playing against you lot - now :love:
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