ZP: The Zoi Patch

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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by deleted_user0 »

p0cA wrote:I remember fast halbs being quite lame on twc.
I dont remember if speed was nerfed or just attack vs inf.

Spain church card gives guard halberdiers in age 3, they still sucK


makes sense, basically every unit that was once op in a previous patch just got nerfed into shitness later lol. WW, spies, halbs, rods.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by n0el »

Always overkill by ES balance team.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

umeu wrote:
p0cA wrote:I remember fast halbs being quite lame on twc.
I dont remember if speed was nerfed or just attack vs inf.

Spain church card gives guard halberdiers in age 3, they still sucK


makes sense, basically every unit that was once op in a previous patch just got nerfed into shitness later lol. WW, spies, halbs, rods.

What were the nerfs to these units?
I know that WW got -2range, what about the others?
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by n0el »

You could rush with spies, they were extremely OP with Agents card.
WW also had range resist I believe.
Not sure rods were ever OP that I can remember, Spain was in general.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by deleted_user0 »

n0el wrote:You could rush with spies, they were extremely OP with Agents card.
WW also had range resist I believe.
Not sure rods were ever OP that I can remember, Spain was in general.


ye they werent op, but they were a better unit. they got their shipments nerfed as well as their attack.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by Dsy »

I had 4.5 speed idea actually on landsknecht since its pretty awful that they slowing down their own buddies the doppels.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by Darwin_ »

Yeah rods used to have 13 atk x3 vs cav instea of 10 x3.5. I personally would like to see rods reverted to nilla as they were much more interesting there.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by duckzilla »

Darwin_ wrote:Yeah rods used to have 13 atk x3 vs cav instea of 10 x3.5. I personally would like to see rods reverted to nilla as they were much more interesting there.

I could be wrong, but I think rods' melee attack was nerfed at least two times. It started with something like 16, was nerfed to 12 and then to 10. Further, their rodelero shipments were nerfed from 7+6 to 6+5.
When the game came out, they were really quite op. Spamming purely rods in age II was an option.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by dansil92 »

duckzilla wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:Yeah rods used to have 13 atk x3 vs cav instea of 10 x3.5. I personally would like to see rods reverted to nilla as they were much more interesting there.

I could be wrong, but I think rods' melee attack was nerfed at least two times. It started with something like 16, was nerfed to 12 and then to 10. Further, their rodelero shipments were nerfed from 7+6 to 6+5.
When the game came out, they were really quite op. Spamming purely rods in age II was an option.


They also used to have really good siege, closer to a pikeman.
Same with spies actually, but those got nerfed into the ground becouse of that "ottos can build them in discovery" glitch and rather than fix that first, they just nerfed them into uselessness and got rid of their seige
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by Djigit »

n0el wrote:This is why having Zoi as the EP leader as opposed to Kaiser or Rouga or whoever is a good thing. There is clearly a different perspective on the game among top players. Having a top player in charge pursuing their vision seems more likely to alienate others than having a change leader like Zoi who is outside of the group yet very knowledgeable.
Yeah that's a false compromise you're offering here. How about having a committee of top players instead?

Also, what's going with ESOC and its spoils system? If I had supported ESOC's leaders, I'd have been at least in the Community Team by now. :smile:
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by n0el »

There is a committee of top players that zoi engages.

And what do you even mean with your second comment? Mod the Ear?
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

n0el wrote:There is a committee of top players that zoi engages.

Who just want to see their playstyle buffed, which is what's happening.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by Garja »

Nah, we are arguably moe neutral than you are. Or at least I am.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:Nah, we are arguably moe neutral than you are. Or at least I am.

I want the EP to be close to the RE, that's objective and neutral. Wanting to change the meta isn't, since it's going to change the balance and the game.

Anyway, tell me this one is neutral lol.
– Qiang Pikeman hand attack light infantry multiplier increased from 2.25 to 3.5
We can all see that it's a Mitoe change who wants to see China colonial being buffed against Aztecs, which is totally undeserved.

Likewise the bow/pike buff is here because the guys who made the changes like bow/pikes. Same, India got nerfed because people think that the civ is op, while India is actually very weak against ff and semi ff builds.
Anyway, you guys buff a civ, and when you realise that the civ is strong, you nerf instead of reverting the buff, how is this objective?
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by Djigit »

n0el wrote:There is a committee of top players that zoi engages.
Who's in this committee?

And what do you even mean with your second comment? Mod the Ear?
I'm saying that people are too often solely promoted based on their sympathy towards the existing staff.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by n0el »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
n0el wrote:There is a committee of top players that zoi engages.

Who just want to see their playstyle buffed, which is what's happening.

Really? I consider Kaiser and Mitoe for example as semi ff style players and that’s getting nerfed.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

n0el wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
n0el wrote:There is a committee of top players that zoi engages.

Who just want to see their playstyle buffed, which is what's happening.

Really? I consider Kaiser and Mitoe for example as semi ff style players and that’s getting nerfed.

They're semi ff players because it's the current meta, but they don't like that. For instance kaiser praises age 2 agressive play including bow/pike all the time, and Mitoe likes to play Japan and China.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by Kaiserklein »

I don't see myself as a semi ff player. Main reason why it looks like that is because my main civ has always been germany, but on nilla germany was mostly about tower rushing in qs, which is as far from semi ff style as you can get. And I enjoyed that more than making cav and going age 3, but sadly on TAD that's how you play it. Although I still tower rush here, go mercs, or go for colonial timings as germany, because it's just fun. I also play lots of otto and russia btw.

For the record though, I don't want to buff aggressive play just "because it's my playstyle", but because it needs a buff lol. Ah also Mitoe and me didn't propose any changes, we just discussed the changes zoi proposed us, so you can't say that we pushed for these changes to happen.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by Darwin_ »

Getting back to the subject of balance, I think going back to Nilla and TWC, at least in spirit, would really help balance in a lot of ways. Reverting rod attack (at least partially), ww range, spain XP rate, getting rid of shipments like thorougbreds (cheaper cuirs), dutch starting with 7 vills (and revert bank cost but keep higher XP), or higher attack/lower RoF Cassadors. I believe that nilla, with maybe a few of the EP changes to Otto and EP maps, is the most balanced version of the game, even moreso that EP, and I believe that getting back to some of what nilla did would be good for balance.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Yea, a general rule should be revert the buffs instead of nerfing lol. It's quite obvious when you think about it.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by Garja »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Garja wrote:Nah, we are arguably moe neutral than you are. Or at least I am.

I want the EP to be close to the RE, that's objective and neutral. Wanting to change the meta isn't, since it's going to change the balance and the game.

Anyway, tell me this one is neutral lol.
– Qiang Pikeman hand attack light infantry multiplier increased from 2.25 to 3.5
We can all see that it's a Mitoe change who wants to see China colonial being buffed against Aztecs, which is totally undeserved.

Likewise the bow/pike buff is here because the guys who made the changes like bow/pikes. Same, India got nerfed because people think that the civ is op, while India is actually very weak against ff and semi ff builds.
Anyway, you guys buff a civ, and when you realise that the civ is strong, you nerf instead of reverting the buff, how is this objective?

That wasn't your intention until recently, was it? Aren't you the one who wanna base balance solely on TP maps, who is in favor of fixed crates, who thinks that every civ should have equal eco options and so on?

As for the qiang pikemen multiplier vs light infantry, it is inferior to those of other pikes. In fact, China is well known to be weak against coyotemen (check on RTSS there are old posts I could literally quote).
Also that change was part of a more consistent change of standardizing all multiplier vs light infantry to a certain % of the multiplier vs cav. That's cause lot of units don't counter coyotemen properly. On the other hand coyotemen kinda need some buff because they are a bit weak as a cav role unit, especially vs other cav early on.

As for bow/pikes, they just suck balls, that's why they should be buffed (and you could even add that it would encourage more colonial and aggressive play, which isn't bad given current meta).
The cost change tho is bad for several reasons:
- it has the undesired effect of boosting the early xbow/pike spam with wood crates.
- it simply doesn't adhere to a very simple rule for which cheap units should be buffed with stats, while premium units sohuld be buffed with cost (and viceversa for nerfs).
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by 91 »

Where can I download this zoi patch? Seems popular
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by EAGLEMUT »

91 wrote:Where can I download this zoi patch? Seems popular

https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=16064
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by Kaiserklein »

Garja wrote:The cost change tho is bad for several reasons:
- it has the undesired effect of boosting the early xbow/pike spam with wood crates.
- it simply doesn't adhere to a very simple rule for which cheap units should be buffed with stats, while premium units sohuld be buffed with cost (and viceversa for nerfs).

What's wrong about being able to spam more bow/pike out of crates? I don't see the problem with it. About the "simple rule" you stated, I have no idea where you pull it from.
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Re: ZP: The Zoi Patch

Post by Goodspeed »

Djigit wrote:
n0el wrote:And what do you even mean with your second comment? Mod the Ear?
I'm saying that people are too often solely promoted based on their sympathy towards the existing staff.
People aren't "promoted" solely because they are friendly with staff, but it certainly helps. Do you not understand how that sort of thing could be seen as a bonus? It makes sense to want to work with people who you get along with and who you know can be trusted. If you ask me it should be a requirement.

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