Starting creates

[HUMMAN]

So in past there have been discussions starting creates are like coin toss, killing competiveness to some extend. For sure it has an impact (5-10% chance to change MU) but it allows for different bo's, and adapting is fun, right?
For sure in casual games it is a good feature, but in competitive mode (kaiser kinda had unprepeared starts in german mirrors/for.sure he could win) sometimes it is unwanted. So want to keep civs in depth, so i propose to have fixed start for the maps, not civs. This way, in casual games u can play random map and experience different starts and in competitive you can focus on certain order in pertucilar map. It is also easier to determine MU's, and practice civs. It has down sides possible ways to play a certain map is reduced(we have many maps anyway), players may stick to particular start maps etc.

[deleted_user0]

Most of the MU's effect is not that huge. But for example in Dutch vs Japs or Dutch vs india, wood start vs coin start is a game-changing factor.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I'm all for it, but it was too controversial, so we had to give up on it. Iirc, only 65% of the community wanted it, and we should get something like 75-80% if we want to make changes imo (like change the bow/pike cost, or nerf the exiled prince).

But of course, it improves the balance of the game because currently only China has fixed crates, and depending on your crate start, you can get -150 resources from the start because of bad crate spawn. So it's very random when you play vs China.
Also wood start favours some civs. For example, aztec vs ger is close on food and gold starts, but heavily ger favoured on wood start.
Likewise, India and Japan can age 30 sec earlier on some starts, which is game changing.

[momuuu]

There are some nasty side effects from random starting crates that make balance much worse. China's fixed crates are problematic, and it's very problematic that some civs can make very good use of extra wood (like France, Germany, India, Japan) while some others really can't (like for example Dutch). I don't even think the crates create much diversity.

[[Armag] diarouga]

There are some nasty side effects from random starting crates that make balance much worse. China's fixed crates are problematic, and it's very problematic that some civs can make very good use of extra wood (like France, Germany, India, Japan) while some others really can't (like for example Dutch). I don't even think the crates create much diversity.

No it doesn't create much diversity. The only difference is that sometimes you can make a market or a TP, but it's more unbalanced than creative.

[Garja]

In 90% of cases the extra random crate(s) don't alter balance to a significant extent. This is because the same crate tends to have the same impact on civs, regardless of the actual use of the crate. 10% exceptions are basically all Dutch cases.

[[Armag] diarouga]

In 90% of cases the extra random crate(s) don't alter balance to a significant extent. This is because the same crate tends to have the same impact on civs, regardless of the actual use of the crate. 10% exceptions are basically all Dutch cases.

And India, and China, and Japan.

[deleted_user0]

200w is pretty shit for russia too. Can't make HD, can't make TP or you will age with 17.
Even with 17 TP is fucked because you can't put vills to wood early

[Garja]

In 90% of cases the extra random crate(s) don't alter balance to a significant extent. This is because the same crate tends to have the same impact on civs, regardless of the actual use of the crate. 10% exceptions are basically all Dutch cases.

And India, and China, and Japan.

India benefits from the same crates as German of French. 100w is the best one. 100g means market, 100f boosts age up time. Same for Japan, except I guess you won't market with 100g but rather just save it. Just use the extra vill on wonder to gain back 10 seconds. Euro civs usually also age 5-10 secs slower if they use 100g to market with no 100f crate.
China has fixed crate, hence the potential problems.

[Garja]

200w is pretty shit for russia too. Can't make HD, can't make TP or you will age with 17.
Even with 17 TP is fucked because you can't put vills to wood early

It's not that great but it's not bad either. With 17v you can totally TP, even tho you have to house first. It changes the way Russia plays the game completely, but objectively going 2 TPs 17v is not weak.
Also let's bear in mind Russia actually ages with +2.5v because of the trickle. In that sense Russia gets a bit more stuff already than most civs.

[Mitoe]

China’s not really that big of an issue considering that 95% of the time they’re going to be placing their wonder after you’ve already started aging, and then also not going to be threatening you in age 2, and super easy to scout if they are going to do anything in age 2.

At this point though, idk maybe I’d be willing to try fixed crates. I don’t really like it, but maybe the pros outweigh the cons.

[[Armag] diarouga]

In 90% of cases the extra random crate(s) don't alter balance to a significant extent. This is because the same crate tends to have the same impact on civs, regardless of the actual use of the crate. 10% exceptions are basically all Dutch cases.

And India, and China, and Japan.

India benefits from the same crates as German of French. 100w is the best one. 100g means market, 100f boosts age up time. Same for Japan, except I guess you won't market with 100g but rather just save it. Just use the extra vill on wonder to gain back 10 seconds. Euro civs usually also age 5-10 secs slower if they use 100g to market with no 100f crate.
China has fixed crate, hence the potential problems.

If you go for a market with 100c as India, it's going to slow your age up, while with civs like fre/ger, it's not going to slow your age up and you'll have a market for free basically.

Same for Japan, except I guess you won't market with 100g but rather just save it.

Well, so your opponent is going to get a free market, while you're just going to be 30sec late of your age up lol, it isn't the same at all.

And no, nilla civs aren't slower if they build a market with 100c, while with India/Japan you can be 20 sec slower.

[[Armag] diarouga]

200w is pretty shit for russia too. Can't make HD, can't make TP or you will age with 17.
Even with 17 TP is fucked because you can't put vills to wood early

It's not that great but it's not bad either. With 17v you can totally TP, even tho you have to house first. It changes the way Russia plays the game completely, but objectively going 2 TPs 17v is not weak.
Also let's bear in mind Russia actually ages with +2.5v because of the trickle. In that sense Russia gets a bit more stuff already than most civs.

It's bad because your opponent doesn't have to delay his age up if he wants to TP while you do.

[Kaiserklein]

Building a market does slow you down. 50w 75g + building/walking time costs basically 200f, while hunt dogs brings you at best 100f in age 1 (that'sif you gather 1100f with hunts dogs, which is even optimistic sometimes).
Market is fast only when you get wood/coin treasures basically

[[Armag] diarouga]

China’s not really that big of an issue considering that 95% of the time they’re going to be placing their wonder after you’ve already started aging, and then also not going to be threatening you in age 2, and super easy to scout if they are going to do anything in age 2.

At this point though, idk maybe I’d be willing to try fixed crates. I don’t really like it, but maybe the pros outweigh the cons.

I don't get your logic. Why isn't China an issue because of that lol?
The issue is that when you play like France vs China, sometimes you get an age 1 TP, while sometimes you don't get anything and it doesn't affect China. How is it fair?
I can phrase it another way: depending on your crate start, you can start with 400f/200w or 400f/100w against China. How is starting with -100w not an issue?

[[Armag] diarouga]

Building a market does slow you down. 50w 75g + building/walking time costs basically 200f, while hunt dogs brings you at best 100f in age 1 (that'sif you gather 1100f with hunts dogs, which is even optimistic sometimes).
Market is fast only when you get wood/coin treasures basically

But you almost always get coin treasures. Most of the time it's 50w or 50w/20c.
And anyway, if it slows you down, it's by 5sec, not by 15-20 sec.

[Kaiserklein]

Yes most of the time you get a treas, just wanted to say that the market isn't exactly "free".

[Mitoe]

China’s not really that big of an issue considering that 95% of the time they’re going to be placing their wonder after you’ve already started aging, and then also not going to be threatening you in age 2, and super easy to scout if they are going to do anything in age 2.

At this point though, idk maybe I’d be willing to try fixed crates. I don’t really like it, but maybe the pros outweigh the cons.

I don't get your logic. Why isn't China an issue because of that lol?
The issue is that when you play like France vs China, sometimes you get an age 1 TP, while sometimes you don't get anything and it doesn't affect China. How is it fair?
I can phrase it another way: depending on your crate start, you can start with 400f/200w or 400f/100w against China. How is starting with -100w not an issue?

I’m not saying that’s it’s not an issue, only that China more so than any civ is going to be giving you a lot of time. Most of the time you’re not going to have to interact with them until like 9 minutes if you don’t want to, and by that time 100 resources are only a small percentage of the total resources you’ve gathered. Being down 120-200xp can be a bit annoying from having a later TP, but honestly as most civs that require a TP you can probably afford to just chop 200w in age 1 for it against China anyway, even if it slows down your age up a little bit.

[Garja]

200w is pretty shit for russia too. Can't make HD, can't make TP or you will age with 17.
Even with 17 TP is fucked because you can't put vills to wood early

It's not that great but it's not bad either. With 17v you can totally TP, even tho you have to house first. It changes the way Russia plays the game completely, but objectively going 2 TPs 17v is not weak.
Also let's bear in mind Russia actually ages with +2.5v because of the trickle. In that sense Russia gets a bit more stuff already than most civs.

It's bad because your opponent doesn't have to delay his age up if he wants to TP while you do.

With no extra food crate TP does slow you down a bit even with French, but that's not the point. The point is that yes, you will age up later and have to change your strat with Russia as a result of that, but it is still far from being a weaker option than no TP 14v age up.

[Mitoe]

Wood start as Russia means you can age with the Philosopher Prince and rush extra hard!

[Kaiserklein]

Better send 300w

[Mitoe]

Nah, just rely on losing units in order to continue production until your trickle gets you another house

[Kaiserklein]

trickle is for pussies

[[Armag] diarouga]

China’s not really that big of an issue considering that 95% of the time they’re going to be placing their wonder after you’ve already started aging, and then also not going to be threatening you in age 2, and super easy to scout if they are going to do anything in age 2.

At this point though, idk maybe I’d be willing to try fixed crates. I don’t really like it, but maybe the pros outweigh the cons.

I don't get your logic. Why isn't China an issue because of that lol?
The issue is that when you play like France vs China, sometimes you get an age 1 TP, while sometimes you don't get anything and it doesn't affect China. How is it fair?
I can phrase it another way: depending on your crate start, you can start with 400f/200w or 400f/100w against China. How is starting with -100w not an issue?

I’m not saying that’s it’s not an issue, only that China more so than any civ is going to be giving you a lot of time. Most of the time you’re not going to have to interact with them until like 9 minutes if you don’t want to, and by that time 100 resources are only a small percentage of the total resources you’ve gathered. Being down 120-200xp can be a bit annoying from having a later TP, but honestly as most civs that require a TP you can probably afford to just chop 200w in age 1 for it against China anyway, even if it slows down your age up a little bit.

You can do that, but then it means that you're going to get your first unit batch 25 sec later, and that you won't be able to harass China.
It's really a big issue tbh.