EP 6.1.x Beta [RELEASED-LIVE]

[Hazza54321]

Was that really necessary xD

[musketeer925]

Do you also try to explain to your maths teacher that maths don't make sense ? Because honestly you wouldn't look more stupid than you do right now.

Saying "all the changes are shit" is not a productive way to get different ones. The civil discussion about Shogun on the previous page appears to have worked quite well, on the other hand.

However, I felt that "Show some respect. It would be a shame if you ended up like the frog prince." wasn't a particularly respectful response either. The fact that basically no party in the discussion is willing to be respectful of one another is why these sorts of discussions continue to escalate to hostility. Everyone deserves a bit of respect

[[Armag] diarouga]

Do you also try to explain to your maths teacher that maths don't make sense ? Because honestly you wouldn't look more stupid than you do right now.

Saying "all the changes are shit" is not a productive way to get different ones. The civil discussion about Shogun on the previous page appears to have worked quite well, on the other hand.

Yes, because it was a discussion, not a random guy imposing changes.
You're blind if you can't see that the player discussions don't interest the EP god. Half of the community being against these changes proves this point.

[[Armag] diarouga]

By the way, to back my claim that half of the community isn't happy with at least 3 changes, I made a list of the guys who defended the Zoi Patch in this thread :
Zoi
IamSoldier?
charlemango

And the guys who aren't happy with some changes and who seem to disagree with the new patch philosphy :
diarouga
kynesie
Umeu
enjoy2play
breeze
gamevideo113
Garja
supahons
deadrising78
Listlesssalmon
flontier

In all seriousness, a guy who becomes EP leader after not being elected by the community cannot make a patch half of the community dislikes. Especially when the biggest tournament of the past 11 years is going to be hosted in 6 months, you don't want to ruin such a tourney with an unpopular patch.

[Garja]

Do you also try to explain to your maths teacher that maths don't make sense ? Because honestly you wouldn't look more stupid than you do right now.

Saying "all the changes are shit" is not a productive way to get different ones. The civil discussion about Shogun on the previous page appears to have worked quite well, on the other hand.

However, I felt that "Show some respect. It would be a shame if you ended up like the frog prince." wasn't a particularly respectful response either. The fact that basically no party in the discussion is willing to be respectful of one another is why these sorts of discussions continue to escalate to hostility. Everyone deserves a bit of respect

I didn't say all changes are shit, if you refer to my post.
I clearly stated "there is too much shit that is impossible to tell the outcome". Which means that regardless of how good or bad changes are, they are too many.
Some of them are clearly not good, which is the simple result of adding too much stuff.

Besides, I was mostly refering to the original beta notes, which included 3x the changes listed in this thread (still too many). It is getting a bit difficult to discuss the patch, since there are multiple patch notes around and because post and discord messages I'm receveing are clearly not synced.

[Goodspeed]

And the guys who aren't happy with some changes

No one is ever happy with all of the changes. I'm sure not even Zoi is happy with all of them. I know I never was.

I think maybe some people here underestimate how hard it can be to juggle 20 different opinions and combine them into a coherent patch while trying to keep everyone happy knowing full well you can't include everything any one person likes, or exclude everything they dislike. It's exhausting, frankly. So it helps if people are accepting of the fact that they won't like every change, politely state why they don't like it and move on. This "you are bad and I know better" is indeed not doing anyone any favours.

[[Armag] diarouga]

And the guys who aren't happy with some changes

No one is ever happy with all of the changes. I'm sure not even Zoi is happy with all of them. I know I never was.

I think maybe some people here underestimate how hard it can be to juggle 20 different opinions and combine them into a coherent patch while trying to keep everyone happy knowing full well you can't include everything any one person likes, or exclude everything they dislike. It's exhausting, frankly. So it helps if people are able to accept that they won't always like every change, politely state why they don't like a change and move on, instead of flaming.

I can understand that it is, but in the previous versions of the patch, most of the patch changes were liked by the community, and the others weren't too relevant.

Here the bow/pike change and the fast age up changes are very unpopular and very big.

[Goodspeed]

I don't think they are as unpopular as you think. And I wouldn't call the xbow/pike change big.

[Garja]

And the guys who aren't happy with some changes

No one is ever happy with all of the changes. I'm sure not even Zoi is happy with all of them. I know I never was.

I think maybe some people here underestimate how hard it can be to juggle 20 different opinions and combine them into a coherent patch while trying to keep everyone happy knowing full well you can't include everything any one person likes, or exclude everything they dislike. It's exhausting, frankly. So it helps if people are accepting of the fact that they won't like every change, politely state why they don't like it and move on. This "you are bad and I know better" is indeed not doing anyone any favours.

It is harder if you start proposing your own changes out of nowhere and if you are willing to put a big number of changes on the table in the first place.

Anyway, this very much reminds me of old AS FP which it started good (when old pros where in charge) and then turned to be a huge mess (when more unecessary changes were added).

[edeholland]

And the guys who aren't happy with some changes

No one is ever happy with all of the changes. I'm sure not even Zoi is happy with all of them. I know I never was.

I think maybe some people here underestimate how hard it can be to juggle 20 different opinions and combine them into a coherent patch while trying to keep everyone happy knowing full well you can't include everything any one person likes, or exclude everything they dislike. It's exhausting, frankly. So it helps if people are accepting of the fact that they won't like every change, politely state why they don't like it and move on. This "you are bad and I know better" is indeed not doing anyone any favours.

If only there was some sort of system to measure what option the biggest group of people is happy with.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Also the issue is that Zoi is the one who suggests AND picks the changes at the same time, which doesn't make sense. Of course, he's biased toward his changes.

[Goodspeed]

If only there was some sort of system to measure what option the biggest group of people is happy with.

Not exactly waterproof. A change can be popular and bad, or unpopular and good, and it's hard to filter out the votes by people who really thought about the issue, and votes by people who just "like that unit" or just "think that strategy is boring". Anyway polling has always been part of the process.
Tits need to be calmed. We'll see how EP6 turns out.

[[Armag] diarouga]

We'll see how EP6 turns out.

Can't you just let me play that LAN and then see how EP6 turns out?

[edeholland]

I made a list of the guys who defended the Zoi Patch in this thread

Remove me from that list please. I am not in favor or against all the changes, I doubt anyone is.

The one I have the most trouble with is

Bastion from +400% to +300% and from colonial to fortress age.

and

Bastion doubles wall build time.

I think it's bad game design to have one upgrade also have a negative effect. An upgrade should be what the name suggests: an upgrade (and yes, I know that there are unique church "improvements" that also have negative effects). Giving a negative effect seems counter-intuitive, confusing and uncessary. It's not like there is a total net improvement, because in the case of an incoming raid you rather have a fast-building wall than a strong one. I see three possible solutions: don't change walls at all, keep the current wall hp (even with Bastion) but increase the cost and/or build, or introduce a second wall type that can be build along the standard one, like how AoE2 does it (a very big chance so probably unwanted, but even that seems better to me at this point). Once again, I would like to hear what players thought this is the solution to a problem they are experiencing.

The discussion about daimyo/shogun cost went super well, please let this be the case again.

[Goodspeed]

Can't you just let me play that LAN and then see how EP6 turns out?

If it turns out bad, it'll be fixed before the LAN. That event is months away. Anyway it's not up to me anymore.

[ListlessSalmon]

Am I being super dense or is Bastion doubling wall build time not listed anywhere here? (Perhaps it is listed elsewhere or in a previous set of notes as alluded to by Garja).

[[Armag] diarouga]

Having 2 walls sounds like a nice solutions, however there are multiple issues :
-idk if it is possible to create new buildings, and even then it might mess with the hotkeys
- How would you make sure it's not op? More expensive walls and not available before fortress I guess?

Still, it's a big unnecessary change, so I don't think it'd be good.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Can't you just let me play that LAN and then see how EP6 turns out?

If it turns out bad, it'll be fixed before the LAN. That event is months away. Anyway it's not up to me anymore.

Can't the people in charge delay it until the LAN ? It would be a shame to play the LAN on an untested controversial patch.

[musketeer925]

Certainly possible to create new buildings, but creating a new wall type on the other hand might be harder, as walls have some special things going on regarding placement (i.e., the existing "wall" unit is actually like six different protounits for the different segment lengths and connectors). Not sure if having two wall types is possible.

[Garja]

2 wall types is not a good solution. Too costly and what additional value does it actual bring?
The upgrade can increase the build time, it wouldn't be the first upgrade with a counterbalancing effect in it. I think that Chinese great wall card has these very same effects.

[supahons]

I only like to watch games on twitch or like to participate in tournaments from time to time, but i'm not affected by the changes, because i still mostly play on Nilla or TAD.
The only reason i wrote something to the changes was, because i was quite active on the forum and i found the endless debate a bit ridiculous
You can change the unit stats/buildings/cards quite infinitely, if you don't agree on a certain meta.

eg Let the topplayers vote on the changes, as suggested here, before you test everything.
https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php ... 1&p=342095

Honestly i don't care enough about the changes. Let the top players or most active players vote, that actually care and spend so much time on this (like @Diarouga) or go on with it

[edeholland]

If only there was some sort of system to measure what option the biggest group of people is happy with.

Not exactly waterproof.

Of course not. But then again, neither is this or any other system.

[Goodspeed]

We have frequently polled the community in the past, and asked most top players for their opinions every iteration. I know people like to say we don't include the community in the process but we have repeatedly gone out of our way to do so, actually. Take a guess on how often ASFP polled the community about patch changes.

And this works better than just having people vote on things without quality control, in my opinion and experience.

[SoldieR]

I thought mitoes post about increasing fast age time by 15-20sec was very smart. Then it could possibly allow reverting nerds to ger and fren and others to bring the game closer to RE.

I believe the #1 impact on balance is maps, and maybe that's the least ..mm destructive.. way to balance?

But I've always been on the side of changing the game as little as possible.

Again, I think the mission statement needs to be clear; are we patching with expectation that it will be adopted as official, or patching with expectations to forever be a separate patch (or game)?

[Hazza54321]

agree with little changes as possible, ive been active and dont know a large portion of changes