EP 6.1.x Beta [RELEASED-LIVE]

[dansil92]

Can we finally buff yabusame? Like lower gold cost and raise either base attack or cav multiplier? Because they are just so bad. The idea of a culverin cav is really cool except that flaming arrows are also culverins and the base attack is even worse than arrow knights, probably the closest unit equivalent in that regard

[Kaiserklein]

Looking at the list of current changes in the OP, I like the spanish, russian, otto, chinese and japanese changes. Overall a good list.

On the other hand, a bit sad germany is still left with 180 hp uhlans, it's just bad design, but I kinda gave up on that. Also the fast age is still gonna be the only option for semi-ff civs, 5s is almost irrelevant, even with 10s people would still do the same semi ff builds anyway. The wall change is not enough, it's still possible to add layers of walls (even 1500 hp ones) really quickly, and walls will still have obscene amounts of hp in age 3. The sioux change is dumb, it makes the warchief way stronger in age 2 against RI and musks, which was definitely not needed, though the teepee nerf is good. Iro buff wasn't needed since the civ is good, but it's a small buff anyway so I guess it's okay.

[momuuu]

Goodspeed and zoi crunching the numbers to turn aoe3 in a mathematical beauty where every unit is just the same except with a different skin.

Tbh for aoe3DE we can just release only france and then instead of other civs just offer skin packages. That should give ms some serious income.

[Garja]

To me the question isn't whether zams are good at all (they are), the question is does this nerf have a positive effect on civ balance? I don't think so, because India doesn't need zams to win games. Besides, the only reason zams can be considered better than other goons is their colonial availability, and that alone is no reason to nerf the unit.

I know it was stated earlier that this is not the reason, but I don't agree that the unit is "exceptional" disregarding both its colonial availability and the upgrade shipment. Perhaps I'm wrong in that?

"Completely disregarding its Colonial Age availability and improvement shipments, the Zamburak is an exceptional unit, from a statistical point of view."

I think it's still a good change because goons in general are too strong, but then every other ranged cav unit should also be nerfed (except Yabusame).

It improves civ balance since some specific civs (Aztecs, Russia) just struggle vs India combo and part of that is because zambs are not countered as hard as sepoys.
Also Zambs do fine vs goons, they have 2/3 of pretty much every goon stat (cost, hp, attack) but they cost only 1 pop.
Perhaps ye all goons should have 20% rr.

5 seconds on the fast age up is a waste of a change. It is completely neglectable in 99% of cases. Such a change should be 10 seconds or higher to be of any relevance.
Sioux WC resistance change is a huge buff. Can't believe the rookie mistake of understimating the resistance has been done again. It also breaks the super consistent 10% for all explorers/heroes.

[deleted_user0]

Stop messing with sioux... ty.

[n0el]

China monk change is such a huge nerf. Useless banner army change does nothing to offset it.

[Dsy]

I really think that poiticain balance to have more choiche would be good.
The Quartermaster is a dictator right now and the exiled prince takes over his place. Thats the rule of meta. But i dont really like dictators.

[Hazza54321]

i dont like removing covermode for monk

[deleted_user0]

cover moding (when being full speed) is partly bug abuse tho

I like the patch

[n0el]

cover moding (when being full speed) is partly bug abuse tho

I like the patch

well, i feel like china is a unique example, because in fights hes standing still making disciples most of the time anyways. he doesn't benefit to nearly the degree that aztec warchief does in terms of faster speed and higher attack. a suggestion was made to remove cover mode but increase his RR during age up, so he isn't broken in age 1 but maintains nearly the same effect in fights in terms of tankiness.

[Garja]

That would be even more OP. Monk cover mode is borderline nerfable just out of balance purposes. With the cover mode bug it's just a no brainer to treat it like the Aztec explorer. Chinese monk still benefit to some extent from normal speed since it snares opponent infantry but also it benefits greatly from normal damage since, unlike the Aztec WC, it deals lot of damage with critical hits.

Overall the changes are good. Just sioux need big rework, reverting most if not all the changes.

[tabben]

rip EP Chinese, first old han and now disciple rush slaughtered

[supahons]

Goodspeed and zoi crunching the numbers to turn aoe3 in a mathematical beauty where every unit is just the same except with a different skin.
Tbh for aoe3DE we can just release only france and then instead of other civs just offer skin packages. That should give ms some serious income.

Play a collo/wollo scenario then you see what happens, if you don't calculate anything and don't have any game experience
I think you can balance the game for treaty easier (continuous resource stream, a certain unit composition). It's a lot harder to balance the game for supremacy --> maps with water, low hunt, idle vills, teamgames (unit combos) ...
You can only balance it to some extent to a certain moment in time (eg colonial or fortess age, 1v1), before all the civ differences/deck choices diverge again.

[Goodspeed]

Goodspeed and zoi crunching the numbers to turn aoe3 in a mathematical beauty where every unit is just the same except with a different skin.

Tbh for aoe3DE we can just release only france and then instead of other civs just offer skin packages. That should give ms some serious income.

So uncalled for

[n0el]

That would be even more OP. Monk cover mode is borderline nerfable just out of balance purposes. With the cover mode bug it's just a no brainer to treat it like the Aztec explorer. Chinese monk still benefit to some extent from normal speed since it snares opponent infantry but also it benefits greatly from normal damage since, unlike the Aztec WC, it deals lot of damage with critical hits.

It just makes it easier to micro which is bad. It is a nerf from the current state because you would have less attack (in theory).

[Darwin_]

I think in an ideal world, fast age up would just be removed, and all fortress age ups would take 100 seconds (and maybe cost slightly less). However, that will never happen as it would have way too much of a change on balance. I personally would like to see the beta test out making fast age between 60 to 75 seconds, and test speeding up the slow age to 100 seconds and have them give 600 resources worth of units, instead of the 7-800 they give now, just to see how players would actually adapt (and not just argue in the abstract).

Japan change is interesting, as it is something I had never thought about before and which I don't recall anyone ever mentioning before. I was more of a fan of giving them an extra food crate, but I think shrine cost is fine too. Shrine cost, however, seems to benefit them more around 7-8 minutes into the game (when I personally think their strength is acceptable, though on the weaker side, if you want to play somewhat creatively), while an extra food crate is more of a buff to them at 5-6 minutes (which is where I think they need a buff the most).

Honestly, I was also a pretty big fan of the colonial politician changes in the first smackdown patch (though the 700f politician did seem a little abusable), and I think it would be interesting to do smackdown-style changes to all politicians (and wonders and TWC politicians as well) for the beta,

[Mitoe]

Honestly, I was also a pretty big fan of the colonial politician changes in the first smackdown patch (though the 700f politician did seem a little abusable), and I think it would be interesting to do smackdown-style changes to all politicians (and wonders and TWC politicians as well) for the beta,

After watching it I think it's still pretty situational, though significantly better than the current 500f age up. Mostly I think players were just experimenting with things other than 400w to see how it felt.

[[Armag] diarouga]

700f is much better than 400w.

[Mitoe]

700f is much better than 400w.

You're misunderstanding. It doesn't give you 700f. It costs 700f instead of 800f, and gives you 400f upon age up instead of 500f.

Basically it gives you the same villager seconds as before, but it tries to open an option that isn't strictly villager seconds vs villager seconds, which is what the current issue between 400w & 500f is. Instead it gives you the option to age a bit faster or be a bit greedier in age 1 (by chopping 200w for a TP for example, and still aging on time) without sacrificing as much. Can be useful in certain situations or builds.

P.S. Also 700f is barely better than 400w, and borderline worse. 400w is 800 villager seconds, whereas 700f is 833.33 villager seconds. If you have hunting dogs it's actually worse at 757.58 VS. 400w with Gang Saw (727.27 VS) is still worse than food with hunting dogs, but since you rarely get gang saw except in specific situations it's safe to say that the wood is still better unless you're going for a very food dependent build or something.

[zoom]

Can we finally buff yabusame? Like lower gold cost and raise either base attack or cav multiplier? Because they are just so bad. The idea of a culverin cav is really cool except that flaming arrows are also culverins and the base attack is even worse than arrow knights, probably the closest unit equivalent in that regard

I wish! Hopefully soon enough.

[zoom]

I really think that poiticain balance to have more choiche would be good.
The Quartermaster is a dictator right now and the exiled prince takes over his place. Thats the rule of meta. But i dont really like dictators.

I really think so, too. Although I'm not sure I understand the rest.

[zoom]

China monk change is such a huge nerf. Useless banner army change does nothing to offset it.

It is a huge nerf, to the unit. As for your second statement, I'm inclined to agree – although you'd be surprised how many seem not to be, based on feedback. Also, please keep in mind the compensation, as well as the Exiled Prince/Messenger nerfs.

cover moding (when being full speed) is partly bug abuse tho

I like the patch

well, i feel like china is a unique example, because in fights hes standing still making disciples most of the time anyways. he doesn't benefit to nearly the degree that aztec warchief does in terms of faster speed and higher attack. a suggestion was made to remove cover mode but increase his RR during age up, so he isn't broken in age 1 but maintains nearly the same effect in fights in terms of tankiness.

In terms of balance, the Chinese case is indeed different from the Aztec one. However, the fact remains, of an abusable bug whose existance is both silly and a blight on the patch. Can you not agree that fixing it and balancing accordingly is preferable? The monk simply has to be good enough for the overall performance of the civilization. It's not as if the hero becomes unviable, like an ordinary unit would (except for cost and train-time, which is being addressed), or as if it's weak compared to any other hero, without cover mode bug abuse.

[zoom]

rip EP Chinese, first old han and now disciple rush slaughtered

#EPlogic
Considering buffing Disciple train-time.

[Garja]

Should just buff disciples as they were overnerfed back then and now they're way worse than war dogs, for example.

[momuuu]

China monk change is such a huge nerf. Useless banner army change does nothing to offset it.

It is a huge nerf, to the unit. As for your second statement, I'm inclined to agree – although you'd be surprised how many seem not to be. Also, please keep in mind the compensation, as well as the Exiled Prince/Messenger nerfs

cover moding (when being full speed) is partly bug abuse tho

I like the patch

well, i feel like china is a unique example, because in fights hes standing still making disciples most of the time anyways. he doesn't benefit to nearly the degree that aztec warchief does in terms of faster speed and higher attack. a suggestion was made to remove cover mode but increase his RR during age up, so he isn't broken in age 1 but maintains nearly the same effect in fights in terms of tankiness.

In terms of balance, the Chinese case is indeed different from the Aztec one. However, the fact remains, of an abusable bug whose existance is both silly and a blight on the patch. Can you not agree that fixing it and balancing accordingly is preferable? The monk simply has to be good enough for the overall performance of the civilization. It's not as if the hero becomes unviable, like an ordinary unit would (except for cost and train-time, as is being addressed), or as if it's weak compared to any other hero, without cover mode bug abuse.

These are things that bother me. The justification for handing out a big nerf to China is that the hero unit "wont become unviable" (because you are forced to have a monk anyways) and then you claim that changing the train cost/time is reasonable compensation. But in reality we all know that the option to train the monk is entirely unviable and irrelevant anyways. So in reality there is no compensation and instead you're just adding some useless change to the already huge list of changes.

Maybe this approach of balancing the numbers and expecting the game's balance to suddenly become balanced too does not make sense? At the very least you shouldnt sell pointless changes as compensation.