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Canada Mitoe
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24 Jan 2019, 01:27

flontier wrote:I mean, how we're going to make the meta more interesting by stacking change like this ? it wont change the semi ff meta.

How do you change the meta if you don't make changes? :hmm:

Anyway, it seems to me that everyone is suddenly ok with the semi-FF meta since no one wants Exiled Prince to be changed. :P
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France [Armag] diarouga
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24 Jan 2019, 06:17

Mitoe wrote:
Diarouga wrote:Buffing slow age up would make Brit and Spain too strong, that's the issue.

Maybe. I would argue you can potentially revert a lot of changes as a result of it though. French can have their 120f CDB back, Germans can have their Uhlans back (or maybe some other kind of compensation: reducing their shipment penalty from 10% to 8% would be nice considering that it would also help them be more competitive in situations where they cannot construct a TP), could possibly revert the Indian house change or increase it's cost slightly to compensate. It also helps some of the arguably weaker civs like Japan and Russia without actually making any changes to them.

You underestimate the impact of a 10 sec change honestly. Games are won or lost every day because of a 10 sec difference, and -5f on cdb or +20w on houses wouldn't change that lol.

Plus it makes Fortress less overwhelming on TP maps, while less underwhelming on non-TP maps where you would probably prefer to slow age because you might not have a shipment available when you hit age 3 otherwise.

You already want to use the slow age up on no TP maps, so it wouldn't change that. Also fortress isn't that "overwhelming" on TP maps. The game starts in colonial, and you have to fight for the map because if you semi ff like a bot you're going to lose your TP(s), and at some point you go to the fortress age, and that's where the game ends.
It's just better that way, you fight in colonial, then you have to age at some point.


Right now it's just such a bad option that you only do it if your civ is forced to do it--doesn't that indicate some kind of problem?

There are a lot of things which are bad in this game lol, it doesn't mean that we should change everything.

Is it really a good thing that Spain literally can't do anything other than FF in 90% situations because if they don't start aging as early as possible they usually can't ever get away with aging?

Mankle used to semi ff with Spain in half of his games, so ff isn't really your only option.

Or the same for Aztec or Iro for that matter--if you fast age to Colonial you virtually have to commit to staying Colonial. Aztec, sure, can age still age I guess, but they have to commit very hard to doing it, and other options are not very good because it will take you too long to get up otherwise.


Also changing the slow age up/fast age up probably wouldn't change the way the civs are played, it would just imbalance the game.
With a slow age up buff, would you semi ff as Spain? Surely not, the Spain semi ff might become okish, but it'd be of course better to abuse the buffed ff. Likewise, as Brit you'd keep going for a semi ff.

The issue with these changes is that they just reward easy play. Atm as India you don't want to make zams, just make 100% sepoy, semi ff and use the cease fire to get a crazy engagement with urumis. Instead of tackling this issue and removing cease fire (because cease fire shouldn't be a thing in a competitive RTS, reaching melee for free is just dumb), the patch nerfs zamburaks, a unit which is hard to control and very situational. Now we won't see zams anymore, even in India mirror or India vs Aztecs (which are the only 2 MUs where you wanted that unit) because sepoys are so much better.

Likewise, the manor nerf means that instead of booming and adapting to the opponent (delaying the age up time against an age 2 timing, contesting the TP line etc), some people will just make musk/huss and a move in colonial, which is uninteresting lol.
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24 Jan 2019, 06:47

spain semi ff is totally solid.
Great Britain ListlessSalmon
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24 Jan 2019, 08:33

I don't really understand the Zamburak change, why are we nerfing non-Sepoy Indian anti-cav? Was there concern that the Sepoy were not being used with sufficient frequency?

I also don't like the fast age nerf, xbow/pike change, brit house nerf or Pavillion nerf. But even if you were committing to that (fast age nerf and compensating changes) the nerfs being doled out to compensate for it seem a bit odd to me. I get nerfing Brit as the consensus is they are strong (though this seems like a poor way to do it), but why single out Japan? I thought that Aztec (fast age to colonial most games so not affected) and China (wonders) were considered stronger than Japan so why nerf Japs but not those? (Indeed China gets a buff instead).

I don't mind the daimyo/shogun cost increase though, making keeping them alive more important would seem to make things a bit more interesting, though as I don't think Japan is actually too strong maybe the Shogun aura nerf could be (partially) reverted to compensate.

I like the Bastion nerf, and don't have strong feelings about the other changes.

If EP is indeed starting to make substantial changes to the game to make it "better" (in some community-defined sense) one thing that would seem nice to me (if its possible- I have no idea on that) would be to make certain things that aren't hotkeyable have hotkeys, like upgrades (and units from the agra fort).
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Netherlands edeholland
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24 Jan 2019, 08:36

Daimyo cost increased from 350c to 500c; Bounties adjusted from 35xp to 50xp
Addressing team-game balance, primarily, this change increases the significance of the unit's death, to both sides.

Shogun cost increased from 350c to 1000c; Bounties adjusted from 35xp to 100xp
Addressing team-game balance, primarily, this change increases the significance of the unit's death, to both sides.
I am wondering what team players think that the the death of these units isn't significant enough.
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France flontier
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24 Jan 2019, 08:53

Mitoe wrote:
flontier wrote:I mean, how we're going to make the meta more interesting by stacking change like this ? it wont change the semi ff meta.

How do you change the meta if you don't make changes? :hmm:

Anyway, it seems to me that everyone is suddenly ok with the semi-FF meta since no one wants Exiled Prince to be changed. :P


I didnt say this, my point is that doing and stacking little change like we did is like 10 times less influent on the meta than the map. So exept if you do really big change, It just change the balance and make the game more and more different and create new civ like ep sioux and now ep germany.

Also lot of players dont have so much time to play ep because its pretty frustrating to wait one hour before playing one 1v1 per day (if youre lucky), so its hard to practise and its just impossible to be used to the civ that changed too much and it result that we're not playing some civ anymore. Thats why i dislike stacking too much change for a civ.
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France bwinner
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24 Jan 2019, 10:59

The more I see diarouga discuting about the patch, the happier I am he isn't patch leader. (Even though I would have been favourable to that 3 months ago)
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France [Armag] diarouga
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24 Jan 2019, 12:58

edeholland wrote:
Daimyo cost increased from 350c to 500c; Bounties adjusted from 35xp to 50xp
Addressing team-game balance, primarily, this change increases the significance of the unit's death, to both sides.

Shogun cost increased from 350c to 1000c; Bounties adjusted from 35xp to 100xp
Addressing team-game balance, primarily, this change increases the significance of the unit's death, to both sides.
I am wondering what team players think that the the death of these units isn't significant enough.

Well team players hate Japan tbh so they want the civ to be nerfed.
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Netherlands edeholland
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24 Jan 2019, 13:10

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
edeholland wrote:
Daimyo cost increased from 350c to 500c; Bounties adjusted from 35xp to 50xp
Addressing team-game balance, primarily, this change increases the significance of the unit's death, to both sides.

Shogun cost increased from 350c to 1000c; Bounties adjusted from 35xp to 100xp
Addressing team-game balance, primarily, this change increases the significance of the unit's death, to both sides.
I am wondering what team players think that the the death of these units isn't significant enough.

Well team players hate Japan tbh so they want the civ to be nerfed.
So why not nerf the actual unit stats instead of increasing the value?
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United States of America n0el
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24 Jan 2019, 13:14

Unit stats hurts the early game 1v1 balance?
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France [Armag] diarouga
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24 Jan 2019, 13:25

Yea, Japan isn't great in 1v1 so you can't afford to nerf the unit stats.
Increasing the shogun cost doesn't make a lot of sense either, but at least it doesn't affect 1v1.
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Italy Garja
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24 Jan 2019, 13:28

Shogun 350g -> 500g is fine. Everything else is overkill
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France [Armag] diarouga
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24 Jan 2019, 13:30

Garja wrote:Shogun 350g -> 500g is fine. Everything else is overkill

It's 350c => 1000c lol
Shogun 350c => 500 would indeed be fine.
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France Kynesie
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24 Jan 2019, 14:11

I don t get why shogun nerf is considered as a team balance change only. I mean, shogun is in every signle 1v1 deck and sent in every 1v1 game where a jap reach age 4... And he is more likely to die in 1v1 than in team, because in team he is usually use for his aura behind a large mass of infantry , while in 1v1 using tokugawa for fight/snipe some units/canons is quite usual.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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24 Jan 2019, 14:20

350c is just way too cheap to revive a unit that strong. It's the price of 2 huss, which is very low for a unit which based on stats alone is worth at least 4 and which also serves as a buff to your army, a mobile shipment arrival point, and a mobile military building. Oh and it heals itself. So the change makes perfect sense. And in 1v1 there is plenty of compensation with the fast age nerf.
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Norway oxaloacetate
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24 Jan 2019, 14:32

Goodspeed wrote:350c is just way too cheap to revive a unit that strong. It's the price of 2 huss, which is very low for a unit which based on stats alone is worth like 4 and which also serves as a buff to your army, a mobile shipment arrival point, and a mobile military building. Oh and it heals itself. So the change makes perfect sense. And in 1v1 there is plenty of compensation with the fast age nerf.


Although this makes perfect sense, it should be taken into account that it changes how the unit plays; since it now is too expensive to suicide against artillery or gamble with. Now you will be paying 1k coin for the buff, whereas you previously paid 350c for the buff and the figthing capability. Not stating whether this is good or bad.
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Italy Garja
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24 Jan 2019, 14:50

Goodspeed wrote:350c is just way too cheap to revive a unit that strong. It's the price of 2 huss, which is very low for a unit which based on stats alone is worth at least 4 and which also serves as a buff to your army, a mobile shipment arrival point, and a mobile military building. Oh and it heals itself. So the change makes perfect sense. And in 1v1 there is plenty of compensation with the fast age nerf.

350g is too cheap, 1000g is too expensive. Paying 1k gold just to have 10% hp back (that is the purpose of the unit past a certain point) is way too much.
Main cost of shogun is anyway the time it takes to train it back, no need to charge on gold cost excessively.
What do you refer to with plenty of compensation with the fast age nerf?
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24 Jan 2019, 14:59

Garja wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:350c is just way too cheap to revive a unit that strong. It's the price of 2 huss, which is very low for a unit which based on stats alone is worth at least 4 and which also serves as a buff to your army, a mobile shipment arrival point, and a mobile military building. Oh and it heals itself. So the change makes perfect sense. And in 1v1 there is plenty of compensation with the fast age nerf.

350g is too cheap, 1000g is too expensive. Paying 1k gold just to have 10hp back (that is the purpose of the unit past a certain point) is way too much.
Main cost of shogun is anyway the time it takes to train it back, no need to charge on gold cost excessively.
What do you refer to with plenty of compensation with the fast age nerf?


the train time is a good point. perhaps, instead of increasing the cost beyond 500, you can increase train time if the unit is still considered a bit too op after 500.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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24 Jan 2019, 15:02

Agree, train time increase seems better.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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24 Jan 2019, 15:33

Yea, train time increase is much better.
Great Britain Hazza54321
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24 Jan 2019, 15:40

I feel like its mostly irrelevant, the dude shouldn’t ever die with his 2khp 220att and a fast healing rate
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United States of America musketeer925
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24 Jan 2019, 15:44

perhaps, instead of increasing the cost beyond 500, you can increase train time if the unit is still considered a bit too op after 500.

Agree, train time increase seems better.

Yea, train time increase is much better.


What is this, we had a civil discussion leading to a consensus on a new change?
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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24 Jan 2019, 16:42

Hazza54321 wrote:I feel like its mostly irrelevant, the dude shouldn’t ever die with his 2khp 220att and a fast healing rate
I know right, there is just no excuse. That's why the 350c is so stupidly low
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New Zealand zoom
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24 Jan 2019, 16:46

Hai! I hope everyone is well.

I'm currently in the process of gathering and looking at feedback. Based on it and continued discussion, there will likely be an update made soon. I will try to respond to everything by the end of this week. Thank you all for your patience. In the mean time:

somppukunkku wrote:I'm probably late with this idea but how about native embassy 100w? Even with good natives it sucks to make them cause tradepost is located in a shitty place.
I think it's a good idea, just not within the scope of this particular release. Expecting it to be relevant for a future update, though.
Method_man714 wrote:Why do brits keep getting nerfed even though nobody plays them
Are you aware that the Exiled Prince/Fortress Messenger nerfs are a buff to the civ's primary weakness? That fact, along with the Indians and Sioux nerfs, is the reason. At this point, it isn't definitive, even.
charlemango wrote:Is this damn patch ever gonna be released?!
Yes! At this point, expect a February release.
Garja wrote:There is just so much pile of shit all ot once in one patch that it is impossible to tell the outcome.
In choosing your words, you certainly aren't doing anyone any favors. Show some respect. It would be a shame, on many levels, if you ended up like the frog prince.

Please read the OP, then try to articulate what is so shit about every change.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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24 Jan 2019, 16:49

zoom wrote:
Garja wrote:There is just so much pile of shit all ot once in one patch that it is impossible to tell the outcome.
In choosing your words, you certainly aren't doing anyone any favors. Show some respect. It would be a shame if you ended up like the frog prince.

He doesn't have to, he's a much better player than you've ever and will ever be, although he's only Garja. You should show some respect and just shut up when people who know 10 times more about the game than you do tell you how it works.

Do you also try to explain to the guys who have the fields medal that maths don't make sense ? Because honestly you wouldn't look more stupid than you do right now.

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