I think TP's needs to be nerfed

[iamturk]

Was thinking about that for a while but decided to make a thread about that. Some matchups are already really really hard enough and with the Stagecoach the MU's being impossible. Actually MU doesnt matter if someone get tp line somehow is gonna win no matter what. (Talking about high level games) Imo tp's need to be 250w again (thats gonna force people to play more age 2 which is good imo) or if u think it would hurt semi ff civs so much we can change stagecoach cost too.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I don't know. On the other hand, it means that you have to fight for map control, which is good.
It's very hard for Japan and Dutch of course because they are defensive civs, but else it's okay.

[Kynesie]

I prefer this than exiled prince nerf. And this help for 5 tps map,when the MU decide who get tps, and then it s like over...

[spanky4ever]

really bad idea would put the EP even further away from the original game. And that should be argument good enough

[Kaiserklein]

I think people underestimate how hard it actually is to get a stagecoach for most civs. It's super easy for the opponent to scout (either by spotting the tp line turned into stagecoach or by seeing the TP count on the top right) and it's still quite expensive. There's usually quite a big window for your opponent to push you if you do that. The problem is that most people just do their build without trying to adapt, typical example being dutch sitting in base and going for bot 5 banks ff into skirm/ruyt instead of cutting eco to push the tp line either in colo or in early fortress. Even just stealing TPs is a way to hurt the opponent. Then of course it depends on the TP line, but on most maps you don't have a TP line with a ton of TPs and far from your base (that's the case only on high plains and klondike basically).

That being said, I also think TPs should be slightly nerfed, but not because of stagecoach. Rather because right now you "have to" take a TP with some civs, typically fr/ger/port/spain/etc just always take a TP when they can. I feel like taking a TP should be a possibility, but deciding to cut the TP to be more aggressive also should, and right now that's not the case.

Going 250w TPs would be awkward though, because it would make it basically impossible for any civ besides otto to go for an age 1 TP on wood starts. That kills variety, not only for semi-ff civs, but also for civs like china/brits/india who can sometimes decide to go for an age 1 TP. And on nilla people often ignored the TPs because they cost 250w, even on great plains which has the safest TP ever. We don't want that to happen.
I'd like to see the xp income nerfed instead, by 20% for example. It would make the age 1 TP a bit slower since you get your vil shipment later, and it would just nerf TPs overall, without disrupting build orders.

[Mitoe]

I personally really dislike the idea of going back to 250w. They were so irrelevant back then, and I think overall TPs being cheaper is a good thing for the game because they force players to interact. I think most civs have good options for dealing with TPs and stagecoach, with the exceptions being maybe Japan and Dutch, although I'm pretty sure that Dutch actually have some solid builds for dealing with it themselves as well, and Japan has been overdue for some early game buffs for a long time, especially since their mid and lategame keeps getting scaled down.

It might be reasonable to nerf something about them, but the cost should remain the same, IMO. This may even allow us to revert some awkward nerfs to some of the civs that rely heavily on TPs such as Otto and German. Perhaps reducing the speed of the travois by 0.1 or 0.2 -- not sure how much this affects the income.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I agree that 250w TP is an ugly change, but everybody would still take a TP lol. People didn't take TPs on nilla because they weren't aware of how good they were. Actually, even on TAD, people used to skip the TP as France lol.

[Garja]

When you add the less efficiency of RE maps and the extra 50w, taking TPs has less priority.
Anway, 200w is necessary to make it a viable investment. If anything should nerf the xp/sec but I don't think it's necessary. TPs don't just buff age3 but also age2 of those civs that rely on spamming crates to compete with better civs (e.g. Fre vs Brits).

[Amsel_]

What about lowering the resource yield on stagecoach? It nerfs TP booms, but doesn't affect civs that really need an early TP for xp. It's not like France and Spain are even that OP, so I think a stronger nerf to TPs might require individual buffs to these civs to compensate.

[Interjection]

a more expensive but also more effective stage coach?

Also feel like Iron Horse (train) could be buffed

[Mitoe]

I don't really think Iron Horse needs a buff, nor should Stagecoach be more expensive and also stronger, I think. That just makes it different depending on the situation, not necessarily better or worse. If anything, being more extreme would make it harder to balance.

In general though, I still think that overall TPs are not a huge balance issue right now.

[Garja]

The main balance issue right now, aside from some joke design (caugh caugh sioux), is that maps have redundant resources.

[QueenOfdestiny]

Could make the stage Coach cost the same as how good the in come is from it. Like some you get 94rss per tp and some only 56rss.
Depending on this the stage Coach with better tps could be more expensive.

Overall I think TPs are fine and people should "lame" more Explorers who need a Tp like France or Germany. Just get a good treasur (thoma or nootka)

[[Armag] diarouga]

Overall I think TPs are fine and people should "lame" more Explorers who need a Tp like France or Germany. Just get a good treasur (thoma or nootka)

Thanks for you advice!

[Hazza54321]

Or just not make maps with a million tps its just moronic

[Hazza54321]

Also this game is balanced around tp maps which obviously isnt ideal

[[Armag] diarouga]

Also this game is balanced around tp maps which obviously isnt ideal

It is, because else TP civs would be op on tp maps lol.

[spanky4ever]

What I find strange is ppl willingness to change ^everything^ - and when zoom change ^a lot^ - he gets flamed hard for it in a thread that just go on and on. Its really strange

[Hazza54321]

Also this game is balanced around tp maps which obviously isnt ideal

It is, because else TP civs would be op on tp maps lol.

Ok

[edeholland]

Could make the stage Coach cost the same as how good the in come is from it. Like some you get 94rss per tp and some only 56rss.
Depending on this the stage Coach with better tps could be more expensive.

The thing is that all trade posts generate around the same amount of resources per second, regardless of how much one pass gives you. This is around 1.2 for unupgraded lines, 2.0 for stage coach lines and 2.4 for iron horse lines. So a post that gives 94 resources isn't actually (that much) better than one that gives 56 resources.

[[Armag] diarouga]

What I find strange is ppl willingness to change ^everything^ - and when zoom change ^a lot^ - he gets flamed hard for it in a thread that just go on and on. Its really strange

Well, everybody wants to change something, but since all changes are super controversial, I think that it's better to keep the EP as it is.
Here some people want TPs to cost 250w, some want to nerf the exp income, some want to balance the game on no TP maps, what can you do lol?

[Goodspeed]

What I find strange is ppl willingness to change ^everything^ - and when zoom change ^a lot^ - he gets flamed hard for it in a thread that just go on and on. Its really strange

Everyone has their own opinion, and it's the only correct one, and the patch changes never reflect their exact opinion. Queue complaints.
The lack of tolerance for other people's points of view in this community is really baffling sometimes.

[[Armag] diarouga]

What I find strange is ppl willingness to change ^everything^ - and when zoom change ^a lot^ - he gets flamed hard for it in a thread that just go on and on. Its really strange

Everyone has their own opinion, and it's the only correct one, and the patch changes never reflect their exact opinion. Queue complaints.
The lack of tolerance for other people's points of view in this community is really baffling sometimes.

Yea, one random guy imposes all the changes and we can't criticize that because else we're being intolerant lol.

[Goodspeed]

The problem is the lack of effort to understand other people's perspectives.

[Hazza54321]

Yeah tbf it would be nice if someone who played the game was behind making changes for once