Patch wall connectors

[Dsy]

Hi guys!

I think its already time to patch walls. No more exploit for deleting pillars!
Its very easy:
<Unit id ='375' name ='WallStraight5'>
<Cost resourcetype ='Wood'>12.0000</Cost>

<Unit id ='611' name ='WallConnector'>
<Cost resourcetype ='Wood'>3.0000</Cost>

(prices are just examples) Most important is the 4x multi between the two. Reason for 4:

[Mitoe]

I'm not really sure what you're suggesting to be honest.

But if you're suggesting that we change walls so that pillarless walls cannot be created without letting enemies through, then I'm against it.

[Dsy]

I'm not really sure what you're suggesting to be honest.

But if you're suggesting that we change walls so that pillarless walls cannot be created without letting enemies through, then I'm against it.

Straight wall needs to cost 4 times more than the connector. Thats the suggestion.

[Mitoe]

Would that make these two walls both cost 12 wood or would the smaller one still cost 5?

Either way though, I don't think we should really change this. It would just remove any skill that currently exists in constructing walls. Or needlessly over-complicate it to the point that it's just confusing.

[Dsy]

Would that make these two walls both cost 12 wood or would the smaller one still cost 5?

Either way though, I don't think we should really change this. It would just remove any skill that currently exists in constructing walls. Or needlessly over-complicate it to the point that it's just confusing.

There are two types of walls.
Straight - long one
Connector - Which Everyone deletes

The straight needs to cost 4 times more since its 4 times longer.
And its not question of skills. Its that we need to make the game as much user friendly as possible.
You cant just tell a new player: YOu need to add hotkey for pillars to delete them since its a nice abuse in the game. Its makes no sense. Its a bug which needs to be fixed.
Plus its not complicated. Longer wall costs more than small one. Its easy to understand.
We most stop give rewards for players who are abusing bugs. And stop call it skill.

[Mitoe]

It is a skill though. And your change does complicate things, to an extent. You would want to delete small walls and replace them with pillars because it is cheaper that way.

Why does it feel like everyone just wants to make the game simpler. “Standard” maps only, remove pull trick, simplify walling, etc.

[deleted_user0]

It is a skill though. And your change does complicate things, to an extent. You would want to delete small walls and replace them with pillars because it is cheaper that way.

Why does it feel like everyone just wants to make the game simpler. “Standard” maps only, remove pull trick, simplify walling, etc.

walling is already very simple, let's not pretend. Making walls is as much a skill as it is to build a house. Sure, it's a skill, but it's not a very important skill or a difficult one to master.

[Mitoe]

Man I love this argument. Everyone always makes it in these discussions.

Just because it’s not difficult to do doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be defended. Any amount of skill is better than nothing. It all adds up in the end.

While we’re at it can we make TCs attract hunts like shrines do? Because let’s be honest, herding isn’t hard so why should it matter if we remove the need for it or not?

[Dsy]

It is a skill though. And your change does complicate things, to an extent. You would want to delete small walls and replace them with pillars because it is cheaper that way.

Why does it feel like everyone just wants to make the game simpler. “Standard” maps only, remove pull trick, simplify walling, etc.

It is a bug abuse though. Noone would delete small walls to replace with connectors. Thats a lot of effort and costs the same.

And its not making the game simpler. Its a bug which can cause new players to dislike the game.
Pull trick with explorer is skill.
However building walls and until that delete some part of it makes no sense. The game designers didnt thought people will abuse it, thats why they didnt fix. Time showed it, now its the time to fix it.
Yeah you can have upperhand compared to new players since you can abuse this bug. Therefore you can call it skill. But make gameplay elements worse in a game just for get some handicap compared to who dont use bugs isnt ethical.

[Mitoe]

It's not a bug. Walls were clearly intended to not have the same type of obstruction mechanics as other buildings to make it easier to build. It would be really annoying to be trying to build buildings next to walls or additional layers of walls if the walls were always trying to snap into place next to each other like other buildings do. This is just taking advantage of that intended feature.

Is deleting wall pillars an unintended consequence? Certainly. Does that make it a bug? Not really. Is it good for the game? I would argue yes.

Even if it were a bug, that wouldn't automatically make it bad: sometimes bugs have positive effects on the game.

[Gichtenlord]

Can't really understand why you guys aren't happy about a new figured out micro mechanic, when this game offers pretty much no "micro depth" at all.

[Mitoe]

Can't really understand why you guys aren't happy about a new figured out micro mechanic, when this game offers pretty much no "micro depth" at all.

Exactly. This is what frustrates me so much about the AoE3 community. It seems like half the players just want to keep the game as easy as possible.

[deleted_user0]

Man I love this argument. Everyone always makes it in these discussions.

Just because it’s not difficult to do doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be defended. Any amount of skill is better than nothing. It all adds up in the end.

While we’re at it can we make TCs attract hunts like shrines do? Because let’s be honest, herding isn’t hard so why should it matter if we remove the need for it or not?

i'm not in favor or against removing it. I don't really care. I don't disagree with what you say here, but I'm just saying that it's already so easy that changing it to what the OP suggests wouldn't really take any significant skill factor out of the game. Nor does the removing of pillars add any significant skill factor to the game. The only thing that matters is the cost. One can definitely argue that by making walling cheaper than it ought to be, you make the game easier.

[Mitoe]

Man I love this argument. Everyone always makes it in these discussions.

Just because it’s not difficult to do doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be defended. Any amount of skill is better than nothing. It all adds up in the end.

While we’re at it can we make TCs attract hunts like shrines do? Because let’s be honest, herding isn’t hard so why should it matter if we remove the need for it or not?

i'm not in favor or against removing it. I don't really care. I don't disagree with what you say here, but I'm just saying that it's already so easy that changing it to what the OP suggests wouldn't really take any significant skill factor out of the game. Nor does the removing of pillars add any significant skill factor to the game. The only thing that matters is the cost. One can definitely argue that by making walling cheaper than it ought to be, you make the game easier.

I would argue the solution would be to make walls more expensive then, 6w or 7w each, than to remove the whole mechanic. I think it is often better to make it more reliant on the mechanic than it is to make it easier.

[Thrar]

Alternatively, what if the cost for pillars were set to 0? It would still be beneficial to delete them, but the difference isn't as big since only build time is affected.

Would it be possible to prevent pillar-only walls in some way so people can't just plop down a whole bunch of free pillars in that case? Or only reduce pillar cost to 0 if a straight segment is attached to it?

[Dsy]

The game designers designed walling to be easy.
If you say to a new player: You need to assign a hokey for deleting walls when you want to make walls. Thats the way we want to play this game.
You scares away him for a good reason.

Its not a thing that should be complicated. Its not user friendly to stick with a bug just because it takes skills.

[iLolicon]

Man I love this argument. Everyone always makes it in these discussions.

Just because it’s not difficult to do doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be defended. Any amount of skill is better than nothing. It all adds up in the end.

While we’re at it can we make TCs attract hunts like shrines do? Because let’s be honest, herding isn’t hard so why should it matter if we remove the need for it or not?

Deleting pillars to save wall cost is not a skill, it is an obvious exploit which everyone abuses. Hunts moving on the other hand is clearly intended and not an exploit. It's just stupid to compare the two.

DSY is offering a solution to a well-known bug. Maybe there wouldn't be so much crying in this community over walls if players actually had to pay for them as was intended.

[[Armag] diarouga]

It is a skill though. And your change does complicate things, to an extent. You would want to delete small walls and replace them with pillars because it is cheaper that way.

Why does it feel like everyone just wants to make the game simpler. “Standard” maps only, remove pull trick, simplify walling, etc.

It is a bug abuse though. Noone would delete small walls to replace with connectors. Thats a lot of effort and costs the same.

And its not making the game simpler. Its a bug which can cause new players to dislike the game.
Pull trick with explorer is skill.
However building walls and until that delete some part of it makes no sense. The game designers didnt thought people will abuse it, thats why they didnt fix. Time showed it, now its the time to fix it.
Yeah you can have upperhand compared to new players since you can abuse this bug. Therefore you can call it skill. But make gameplay elements worse in a game just for get some handicap compared to who dont use bugs isnt ethical.

New players wouldn't care lol? Let's be honest, new players (if by that you mean pr20-) don't need to have cheap walls. If their wall is 100w more expensive it won't matter at their level.
Also I think it's something they might like. Once they discover it they'll feel smart and like it.
Also you'll have the upperhand compared to new players because you're better at the game lol. Because your macro is better, because your micro is better and because your game knowledge is better. It would be totally wrong to claim that a new player would lose because he doesn't know how to delete the wall connectors. It doesn't affect the balance under pr35.

Pull trick is different, because it's very dumb and it has big consequences. Walls have already been nerfed so their cost isn't really an issue anymore, while skirmishers running is still a big issue.

[EAGLEMUT]

I don't understand how the initial suggestion is supposed to combat pillar deleting in the first place. Why wouldn't I just continue to delete them and now save 3w each, instead of 5?

You cant just tell a new player: YOu need to add hotkey for pillars to delete them since its a nice abuse in the game. Its makes no sense. Its a bug which needs to be fixed.

There is no such hotkey, unless you're referring to the already-banned pillar-deleting macro.

[Kynesie]

About the supposed facility

dia.PNG

In English, that means that there are often holes in his walls.

In real game, when you have to do it quickly, It's common to see poorly done no pillar walls...

[[Armag] diarouga]

dia.PNG

Sorti de son contexte ça peut prêter à confusion ce genre de citation

It's not that easy to do that. As I said in this conversation I often have holes in my wall because it's not so easy to do. It also happened to blackstar_op in his final against _H2O on New England and that costed him the game.

[deleted_user0]

breezebrother's games show that it doesn't matter much if you have holes in your wall. it matters maybe when you only have 1 layer.

[Dsy]

I don't understand how the initial suggestion is supposed to combat pillar deleting in the first place. Why wouldn't I just continue to delete them and now save 3w each, instead of 5?

You cant just tell a new player: YOu need to add hotkey for pillars to delete them since its a nice abuse in the game. Its makes no sense. Its a bug which needs to be fixed.

There is no such hotkey, unless you're referring to the already-banned pillar-deleting macro.

There is a select all units hotkey. Its universal use, but still there.
And its matter if you win a lot of wood by deleting pillars or you dont. Now you delete 5 get 25w. Newer version delete 5 means 6.25w.

[EAGLEMUT]

There is a select all units hotkey. Its universal use, but still there.

Well then, that is just a good hotkey to learn in general.

And its matter if you win a lot of wood by deleting pillars or you dont. Now you delete 5 get 25w. Newer version delete 5 means 6.25w.

6.25w? If it's 3w each I get 5x3 = 15w

[Dsy]

There is a select all units hotkey. Its universal use, but still there.

Well then, that is just a good hotkey to learn in general.

And its matter if you win a lot of wood by deleting pillars or you dont. Now you delete 5 get 25w. Newer version delete 5 means 6.25w.

6.25w? If it's 3w each I get 5x3 = 15w

Yeah but if its 3w then currently it would cost 12w.
It means you save 15w instead of saving 60w.