Scaling mercenaries

Scaling mercenaries is a good idea

Poll ended at 29 Mar 2019, 13:33

No
25
71%
Yes
10
29%
 
Total votes: 35

User avatar
Hungary Dsy
Lancer
Posts: 994
Joined: Jun 27, 2015

Scaling mercenaries

Post by Dsy »

Hi guys!

Some days ago a tested techtree and realized its pretty easy to implement new shadows into the game.
So had idea to make mercenaries scaling into industrial and imperial ages. Now mercenaries become useless when a civ age up and have acces guard units.
I think they should be auto upgraded when hit age 4 and age 5, to appeal the same way when they are in age 3.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Scaling mercenaries

  • Quote

Post by Garja »

Hell no. It's inherent to the unit to not scale. Being strong in mid game and not in late game.
Image Image Image
User avatar
Holy See Imperial Noob
Lancer
Posts: 958
Joined: Feb 29, 2016
Location: Well hello DEre

Re: Scaling mercenaries

Post by Imperial Noob »

Mercenaries are the coolest thing ever. Nothing sadder than seeing them get irrelevant in favor of some industrialized guard musket spam.
Australia Kawapasaka
ESOC Pro Team
Posts: 1116
Joined: Jan 25, 2019
Location: Wales (new, south)

Re: Scaling mercenaries

Post by Kawapasaka »

Can't they already scale okay into industrial if you're Germany? With the base stats on some mercs the merc card + AA must give more raw attack or hp than most units get throughout their entire upgrade path.
Either way there's still the issue of production, 1 facility is pretty useless late game unless you're only making lil bombards or something.
User avatar
Holy See Imperial Noob
Lancer
Posts: 958
Joined: Feb 29, 2016
Location: Well hello DEre

Re: Scaling mercenaries

Post by Imperial Noob »

Saloon limit increases by 2 in age 4. Problem solved.

Or by 1 in age 3 and by 1 again in age 4
User avatar
Hungary Dsy
Lancer
Posts: 994
Joined: Jun 27, 2015

Re: Scaling mercenaries

Post by Dsy »

Most of the mercenaries are bad for cost effectivity. It means they are not worth to buy even in age 3. If they scale it doesnt change anything on that. They will be the same bad units for cost effectivity. Only difference is in the "same" word instead of "worse".
Plus where they matter is the cards. Unfortunately on competitive side the whole mercenary cards system is screwed. There are a very few which are good and the others unused and there was no particular change on EP to change these cards. Only mamelukes card were changed. But i dont think youve ever seen Stradiots, Landschknechts, Highlanders etc.
User avatar
Holy See Imperial Noob
Lancer
Posts: 958
Joined: Feb 29, 2016
Location: Well hello DEre

Re: Scaling mercenaries

Post by Imperial Noob »

I would love to see Landsknechts viable in some way. I always sent them in German tower rushes if I was winning
User avatar
United States of America Darwin_
Howdah
Posts: 1446
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
Location: Boston

Re: Scaling mercenaries

Post by Darwin_ »

I think having them scale would be fun, but I would not make their shadow guard and imp techs full strength (maybe 15/20% and 25/30% instead of normal 30% and 50%).
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.
User avatar
Hungary Dsy
Lancer
Posts: 994
Joined: Jun 27, 2015

Re: Scaling mercenaries

Post by Dsy »

Darwin_ wrote:I think having them scale would be fun, but I would not make their shadow guard and imp techs full strength (maybe 15/20% and 25/30% instead of normal 30% and 50%).


The math question is also pretty easy to solve.
Its 1.5=1.2*x
It could be also for use units like cuirassiers which also scaling from their "veteran" base stats.
So yeah there is no issue there that they would be too strong. They would be the same strong compared to guard units as they are in age3 compared to veterans.
Germany amiggo1999
Advanced Player
Donator 01
Posts: 768
Joined: Aug 7, 2016
ESO: miggo1999
Location: Hannover

Re: Scaling mercenaries

Post by amiggo1999 »

I think tweaking the stats/cost of Mercs that are never used would be a fun Idea, and the shadow teching to IV/V as well. But maybe instead of implementing these changes to a new EP patch, it would make more sense to first test some of it on the Smackdown Patch. @Interjection
Image Image
User avatar
Canada dansil92
Retired Contributor
Posts: 2231
Joined: Nov 3, 2018
ESO: dansil92

Re: Scaling mercenaries

Post by dansil92 »

Japan's two last consulate unit are just ronin and ninjas that scale and imperial hatamoto should give you an idea how very quickly mercs will break if you scale them normally
Image
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Scaling mercenaries

  • Quote

Post by Garja »

mercs are simply not meant to scale......
Image Image Image
User avatar
Tuvalu gibson
Ninja
ECL Reigning Champs
Posts: 13597
Joined: May 4, 2015
Location: USA

Re: Scaling mercenaries

Post by gibson »

Garja wrote:mercs are simply not meant to scale......
this
User avatar
United States of America iCourt
Retired Contributor
Posts: 700
Joined: Jan 14, 2016
ESO: iCourt
Location: Monterey, California

Re: Scaling mercenaries

Post by iCourt »

Imperial Mamelukes. :)
User avatar
United States of America Squamiger
Howdah
Posts: 1756
Joined: Dec 25, 2018
ESO: Squamiger

Re: Scaling mercenaries

Post by Squamiger »

The way mercenaries work in this game is as a trade-off of resource efficiency for timing. This is similar to things like idling your town center for a 10/10, or buying wood and food at the market with your bank gold while you defend a rush as Dutch. These things arenā€™t optimally resource efficient, but they allow you to do things you otherwise couldnā€™t like rush super early or defend and go to fortress. Mercs, likewise, are resource inefficient, but when times properly, can win you a game. An example is a port player sending mams against an age2 rush, or adding jaegers to a German FF to deal with a booming age2 Brit player. At very specific times in a game, certain civs have no counter to mercs and so therefore they are effective even tho they are resource inefficient more generally.

Scaling mercs would seriously change this dynamic which might drastically alter competitive play.
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Scaling mercenaries

Post by Kaiserklein »

I don't see how mercs aren't cost efficient. I mean obviously some mercs are bad, just like some units are bad (think halbs, grens, etc). But the good mercs are definitely cost efficient.

The problem of mercs is more that shipping them takes an extra 20s and costs 1000g, which is a risky investment (you might just die while they're otw). And building a saloon means you're likely to get a useless merc and waste 200w. Also it ruins your gold mines, which is a problem for some civs.
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
United States of America Squamiger
Howdah
Posts: 1756
Joined: Dec 25, 2018
ESO: Squamiger

Re: Scaling mercenaries

Post by Squamiger »

Yea in my post I meant, they become cost-efficient when used properly in a timing. But if you just set up two AIs with equal eco spamming units against eachother and one was spamming upgraded skirms and the other was spamming jaegers, wouldn't the skirmisher AI ultimately win, since it would be trading villager seconds more efficiently? That's what I meant by cost-effective.
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Scaling mercenaries

Post by Kaiserklein »

That's the point, jaegers are more cost effective than skirms. Same goes for several mercs
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
No Flag Jaeger
Jaeger
Posts: 4492
Joined: Feb 28, 2015

Re: Scaling mercenaries

Post by Jaeger »

Garja wrote:mercs are simply not meant to scale......

What does this mean?
last time i cryed was because i stood on Legoļ»æ
User avatar
Canada dansil92
Retired Contributor
Posts: 2231
Joined: Nov 3, 2018
ESO: dansil92

Re: Scaling mercenaries

Post by dansil92 »

it means if you add 30% to a merc in industrial and another 50% in imperial you get very broken mercs like.... 2000+ hp mams, 200+ attack hackapells, 150+ Attack Highlanders, 700 attack invincible lil bombards...
Image
No Flag Scheuer88
Crossbow
Posts: 4
Joined: Oct 4, 2017

Re: Scaling mercenaries

Post by Scheuer88 »

dansil92 wrote:it means if you add 30% to a merc in industrial and another 50% in imperial you get very broken mercs like.... 2000+ hp mams, 200+ attack hackapells, 150+ Attack Highlanders, 700 attack invincible lil bombards...


Indian elephant has more than 2300 HP and there is no problem in that so your argument is not worth.
It's all about balancing the right price for the units.
User avatar
Canada dansil92
Retired Contributor
Posts: 2231
Joined: Nov 3, 2018
ESO: dansil92

Re: Scaling mercenaries

Post by dansil92 »

Mahouts are six pop not 4. Oh and like 700 res each. Please. Continue to tell me its balanced.
Image
No Flag Scheuer88
Crossbow
Posts: 4
Joined: Oct 4, 2017

Re: Scaling mercenaries

Post by Scheuer88 »

Maybe because of the translation of the Portuguese language into English (google translator), my thinking was not clear.
I mean that if unit prices are adjusted / balanced properly, there will be no problem climbing mercenaries.
That's why I used the Indian elephant as an example, because although it has incredible statistics, due to its cost (price and pop) it is not OP.
User avatar
Poland pecelot
Retired Contributor
Donator 03
Posts: 10459
Joined: Mar 25, 2015
ESO: Pezet

Re: Scaling mercenaries

Post by pecelot »

what's the point of polls that last only a week
User avatar
United States of America iCourt
Retired Contributor
Posts: 700
Joined: Jan 14, 2016
ESO: iCourt
Location: Monterey, California

Re: Scaling mercenaries

Post by iCourt »

I don't think this would be so bad if it was set as a tech similar to legendary natives. 30%-100% improved stats for like 1000 or so resources in the imperial age. It would make mercs not totally useless in imperial.

It would rarely ever be used, but would make Merc cards more worth it once imperial has been reached. Mercs aren't great in 4 but still ok stats wise. Once imperial they are usually worse than their base units when cost/pop space comes into effect.

I wouldn't have mercs auto tech. You could mess balance up with that. It could potentially (however unlikely) make industrial too powerful. Those age 3 Merc cards are now age 4 Merc cards. Could be hard to balance.

Still. Imperial mamelukes. :)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV