ESOC "standard" map set

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Re: ESOC "standard" map set

Post by zoom »

IAmSoldieR wrote:I think Manchac and Herald island are two of the best maps.
I think Hazza's in trouble.

Do you think they fit this pool, well enough, though? They're both rather unusual.
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Re: ESOC "standard" map set

Post by Hazza54321 »

Its very cute that youre thinking about me :love: .
However soldier the map is called shit island so I wouldn’t consider it to be reliable.
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Re: ESOC "standard" map set

Post by zoom »

Hazza54321 wrote:Its very cute that youre thinking about me :love: .
However soldier the map is called shit island so I wouldn’t consider it to be reliable.
I'm more inkleined to add Shit Island than Manshit. The former does seem to play more normally than the latter, and to boast greater civilization viability. What are your issues with it?
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Re: ESOC "standard" map set

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Post by Djigit »

Remove Malaria from the standard map pool as well.
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Re: ESOC "standard" map set

Post by SoldieR »

I'm confused, Herald Island is the name according to the ESOC maps page. And those are both standard maps..
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Re: ESOC "standard" map set

Post by Kaiserklein »

zoom wrote:I understand. I didn't mean to misrepresent your view. I only meant that, you seemed to think that this set is specifically meant to exclude 0TP maps.

Moving on, removing Klondike seems reasonable, given the fact that it's basically High Plains without the natural resources, and with a perpendicular Route. Civilization viability seems more limited, on that map.

Removing Cascade Range seems less reasonable, given the fact that it has lots of food, while less hunts. What's your problem with the map, in this context?

However much I like the map (a lot), removing Thar Desert from the set is making more and more sense to me. Civilization viability seems too low, on that map.

I think you're right about Herald Island, when it comes to how it plays. I'm especially hesitant to add Manchac, in particular. As an aside, I think that map would be even more playable if the circle-plateaux and tree-lines were less obstructive, overall.

Yeah Klondike is one of the least standard maps imo.

About cascade and thar, well, you get more hunts in your base on thar than on cascade. Sure you don't have berries, but berries are a bit of a last resort for many civs anyway. Also thar has more gold close to tc. In fact, cascade range happens to be the esoc map with the least gold overall, by quite a margin. It also has the least hunts overall. Now you can arguably add the level 1 treasures and the 2 ponds to the list of non standard stuff on this map. I'd say all that makes cascade at least as non standard as thar. I suspect people consider thar as very non standard mostly because of the dunes tbh.

And I agree with soldier both manchac and herald island are quite standard. It's true the manchac swamps are unusual, and the 3rd/4th goldmines are quite far (low gold map overall), but from my experience it plays out pretty standard because of average res in base and average TP line.
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Re: ESOC "standard" map set

Post by Garja »

Yo dont get more hunts in base on thar. Elks are 500f like bisons and you get 10+6 on Cascade. On top of that there are 4k worth of berries so the equivalent to 10 bisons or so.
Yes cascade has less gold but that is in line with the theme of the map and actually balances the civ strenght in some regard (think about India which has only gold gold heavy units basically).
Balance wise Manchac has too many resources close to base. You can easily get 2 big hunts of elks+ the statting hintz +6k of berries. On top of that hunts are concentrated in literally 4 spots meaning that all shrines for Japan will be there. A good 25% of total hunts cant be shrined because they are on the swamp. Sometimes middle hunts merge and you get 20 elks in the same spots. The map also has a number of minor flows concerning layout and appearance. All those things were known and are not too hard to be fixed. Until then map has been excluddd from map set.
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Re: ESOC "standard" map set

Post by aligator92 »

Sepoy/Urumi/Mahout does not scream gold heavy to me
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Re: ESOC "standard" map set

Post by Garja »

Those are all fortress and onward options. Sepoys still cost gold and are countered just as much as other musks by RI that cost wood instead.
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Re: ESOC "standard" map set

Post by zoom »

IAmSoldieR wrote:I'm confused, Herald Island is the name according to the ESOC maps page. And those are both standard maps..
I'm sorry. I got caught up in Hazza's web of lies. I couldn't call either one that, but Herald might fit the bill for this inclusive set.
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Re: ESOC "standard" map set

Post by zoom »

Kaiserklein wrote:
zoom wrote:I understand. I didn't mean to misrepresent your view. I only meant that, you seemed to think that this set is specifically meant to exclude 0TP maps.

Moving on, removing Klondike seems reasonable, given the fact that it's basically High Plains without the natural resources, and with a perpendicular Route. Civilization viability seems more limited, on that map.

Removing Cascade Range seems less reasonable, given the fact that it has lots of food, while less hunts. What's your problem with the map, in this context?

However much I like the map (a lot), removing Thar Desert from the set is making more and more sense to me. Civilization viability seems too low, on that map.

I think you're right about Herald Island, when it comes to how it plays. I'm especially hesitant to add Manchac, in particular. As an aside, I think that map would be even more playable if the circle-plateaux and tree-lines were less obstructive, overall.

Yeah Klondike is one of the least standard maps imo.

About cascade and thar, well, you get more hunts in your base on thar than on cascade. Sure you don't have berries, but berries are a bit of a last resort for many civs anyway. Also thar has more gold close to tc. In fact, cascade range happens to be the esoc map with the least gold overall, by quite a margin. It also has the least hunts overall. Now you can arguably add the level 1 treasures and the 2 ponds to the list of non standard stuff on this map. I'd say all that makes cascade at least as non standard as thar. I suspect people consider thar as very non standard mostly because of the dunes tbh.

And I agree with soldier both manchac and herald island are quite standard. It's true the manchac swamps are unusual, and the 3rd/4th goldmines are quite far (low gold map overall), but from my experience it plays out pretty standard because of average res in base and average TP line.
Civilization viability seems greater on Cascade Range, than on Thar Desert, despite the former also being unusual in a few ways. I think this is due to the resource distribution of food and wood, of the latter, which seems to result in more limited viability of less aggressive civilizations, on the map (also a result of Klondike's). I think the dunes is missing this particular point.

Perhaps one day, there will be a map-set without Cascade Range.
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Re: ESOC "standard" map set

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Post by Kaiserklein »

Can we please not have wabakimi in this map set as it's the opposite of standard? And same for dhaka
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: ESOC "standard" map set

Post by Kaiserklein »

Is something going to be done about this? At least just a reply
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Re: ESOC "standard" map set

Post by harcha »

Kaiserklein wrote:Can we please not have wabakimi in this map set as it's the opposite of standard? And same for dhaka
Agree on wabakimi, don't think dhaka is at a comparable level. maybe i just don't have as competitive of a mindset as you do for what "standard maps" should include

an alternative i propose to removing wabakimi is adding Winter Wonderland to standard map pool. i think we all need some more presents in our lives.
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: ESOC "standard" map set

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

Maybe there should be an option for a custom map set...
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Re: ESOC "standard" map set

Post by Kaiserklein »

harcha wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Can we please not have wabakimi in this map set as it's the opposite of standard? And same for dhaka
Agree on wabakimi, don't think dhaka is at a comparable level. maybe i just don't have as competitive of a mindset as you do for what "standard maps" should include

an alternative i propose to removing wabakimi is adding Winter Wonderland to standard map pool. i think we all need some more presents in our lives.
To me, if you green up a in a match up on "standard maps", you should more or less be able to win it no matter the map. Of course not all match ups will be fair, but it shouldn't be unwinnable. And dhaka has a lot of unwinnable match ups because of the pond.
Even no TP maps are more playable for almost any civ than dhaka. Especially since we're going to rebalance TPs.
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Re: ESOC "standard" map set

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Post by harcha »

Kaiserklein wrote:
harcha wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Can we please not have wabakimi in this map set as it's the opposite of standard? And same for dhaka
Agree on wabakimi, don't think dhaka is at a comparable level. maybe i just don't have as competitive of a mindset as you do for what "standard maps" should include

an alternative i propose to removing wabakimi is adding Winter Wonderland to standard map pool. i think we all need some more presents in our lives.
To me, if you green up a in a match up on "standard maps", you should more or less be able to win it no matter the map. Of course not all match ups will be fair, but it shouldn't be unwinnable. And dhaka has a lot of unwinnable match ups because of the pond.
Even no TP maps are more playable for almost any civ than dhaka. Especially since we're going to rebalance TPs.
i just think that the design on dhaka is awesome/unique and it would be a shame to put the map to rest. what exactly do you think makes it unbalanced?
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: ESOC "standard" map set

Post by Kaiserklein »

I'm not saying the map can't be interesting. We could still have it in tourneys sometimes.
I'm saying it's not standard. We're talking about the "standard maps" set. I think we can both see why a map with super short rush distance, a choke that's walled every single game, a huge pond in the middle controlling everything, 4 TPs, isn't standard.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: ESOC "standard" map set

Post by harcha »

Kaiserklein wrote:I'm not saying the map can't be interesting. We could still have it in tourneys sometimes.
I'm saying it's not standard. We're talking about the "standard maps" set. I think we can both see why a map with super short rush distance, a choke that's walled every single game, a huge pond in the middle controlling everything, 4 TPs, isn't standard.
i consider the walled choke an alternative to a longer rush distance. the 4 TP is a bit annoying imo so i can agree there
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.

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