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New Zealand zoom
EP Project Lead
Posts: 8602
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

06 Jul 2019, 12:06

As a Germans player, if you had to choose, would you rather remove the 2 Uhlans from the shipment (making it 3SW), or exchange one Settler Wagon for a Settler (making it 2SW + 1S + 2U)?

I will be polling this in the near future, publically, but wish for the community to discuss the issue first, to help give voters as informed an opinion, as possible.

Right now, 3SW is about as consistent as if Discovery 2SW came with an Uhlan (definitely an intra-civ balance issue, meaning it's far too viable, compared to other shipments).

Personally, I'd rather remove the Uhlans, because I find the 3SW shipment every bit as defining of the civilization, as the Uhlans bonus, itself, and believe that altering the three Wagons would take away more from the player experience. Also, this would allow the player strategic choice (as opposed to the shipment being strictly superior), and maintain players the option not to screw with pre-existing builds.

The only advantage I see for 2SW+1S, is that it maintains absolute consistency outside of Mercenary shipments (ignoring Discovery age 2SW, of course) – although 3SW is a logical and sensible exception to make, given the distinctiveness of the shipment (of a unique unit), as well as the fact that it's currently a horrible inconsistency, being the civilization's only shipment to receive two bonuses.

Am I missing any advantages of 2SW+1S?

Please note that there is no risk of either change happening, with the release of EP7, if it proves unpopular. Still, for the sake of the question, assume that you must choose.

P.S: Only for Germans: We should add a Settler to all Discovery Age shipments (other than 2SW (because it already has it), and INFINITE and TEAM shipments (by default)). It would help balance 2SW, and remove a horribly ugly inconsistency, that's hiding in plain sight.

"Germans gets a "2 Settler Wagons" Discovery shipment. Effectively, this shipment has a bonus Settler, meaning that currently, every Germans Colonial, Fortress, and Industrial shipment comes with a bonus (except for 3SW which comes with 2, if you recall), but 2SW is the only Discovery shipment that does. From a consistency and design perspective, that is fucking atrocious. It is not a matter of inter-civilization balance – it's hideous and automatically disqualifies every other Discovery shipment from viability."

Thank you for your input!
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"In general you shouldnt say gg before clicking resign IMO"

"♪You can't trust anyone, because you're untrustable. How can you trust someone you know can't trust you?♫"
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Germany yemshi
Jaeger
Posts: 2276
ESO: yemshi
Location: Germany

06 Jul 2019, 13:37

zoom wrote:
P.S. We should add a Settler to all Discovery Age shipments (other than 2SW (because it already has it), and INFINITE and TEAM shipments (by default)). It would help balance 2SW, and remove a horribly ugly inconsistency.

Thank you for your input!

Isn' that as ugly as it gets? A tremendously long list for... eco theory?
Canada vividlyplain
Musketeer
Posts: 57
ESO: vividlyplain

06 Jul 2019, 14:18

As was pointed out on the German Discussion thread, 3 SWs has a double bonus. I think nerfing this particular card is a positive move.
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Great Britain Riotcoke
ESOC Media Team
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ESO: Riotcoke
Location: Best County in the UK

06 Jul 2019, 14:39

Is this assuming Uhlans get buffed back to 190 hp as if not 3sw on it's own is better
You have the charisma of a damp rag, and the appearance of a low-grade bank clerk. And the question that I want to ask, that we're all going to ask, is "Who are you?"
Germany duckzilla
Dragoon
Posts: 388

06 Jul 2019, 14:51

zoom wrote:P.S. We should add a Settler to all Discovery Age shipments (other than 2SW (because it already has it), and INFINITE and TEAM shipments (by default)). It would help balance 2SW, and remove a horribly ugly inconsistency.

So all civs get 4 vills instead of 3? What about France? Will they get 4 Cdb (=4.8 vills)? Or will their shipment become the worst vill shipment in the game?

I'm not really convinced. I would neither change the discovery age shipments nor the german colonial age shipment.
"To counter the pike-boom, you must become the pike-boom." - Karl V. (HRE)
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New Zealand zoom
EP Project Lead
Posts: 8602
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

06 Jul 2019, 14:56

Riotcoke wrote:Is this assuming Uhlans get buffed back to 190 hp as if not 3sw on it's own is better
As is made clear in the OP, this is assuming only that you have to choose between the two options. At this time, it is far from certain that it will feature in EP7's release.
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"In general you shouldnt say gg before clicking resign IMO"

"♪You can't trust anyone, because you're untrustable. How can you trust someone you know can't trust you?♫"
Bhutan jgals
Lancer
Posts: 552
ESO: OstiferButthole
Location: USA

06 Jul 2019, 14:59

its funny how the devs are so reticent to change something that no one would even care about like mantlet speed with the stated mission of "not changing the original game too much" but yet they implemented something so totally game breaking; nerfing the HP of an already paper thin cavalry unit that is expensive and costs 2 pop
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United States of America GiBthedurrty
Dragoon
Donator 01
Posts: 444
ESO: [YumiW]-GiBthedurrty

06 Jul 2019, 15:01

i will not anwser so i wont become a zoiboy
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Armenia Sargsyan
Jaeger
Donator 01
Posts: 2067
ESO: Sargsyan
Location: Armenia
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06 Jul 2019, 15:03

jgals wrote:its funny how the devs are so reticent to change something that no one would even care about like mantlet speed with the stated mission of "not changing the original game too much" but yet they implemented something so totally game breaking; nerfing the HP of an already paper thin cavalry unit that is expensive and costs 2 pop

completely agree, bro
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New Zealand zoom
EP Project Lead
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06 Jul 2019, 15:07

duckzilla wrote:
zoom wrote:P.S. We should add a Settler to all Discovery Age shipments (other than 2SW (because it already has it), and INFINITE and TEAM shipments (by default)). It would help balance 2SW, and remove a horribly ugly inconsistency.

So all civs get 4 vills instead of 3? What about France? Will they get 4 Cdb (=4.8 vills)? Or will their shipment become the worst vill shipment in the game?

I'm not really convinced. I would neither change the discovery age shipments nor the german colonial age shipment.
No. Germans gets a "2 Settler Wagons" Discovery shipment. Effectively, this shipment has a bonus Settler, meaning that currently, every Germans Colonial, Fortress, and Industrial shipment comes with a bonus (except for 3SW which comes with 2, if you recall), but 2SW is the only Discovery shipment that does. From a consistency and design perspective, that is fucking atrocious. It is not a matter of inter-civilization balance – it's hideous and automatically disqualifies every other Discovery shipment from viability.

Also, whether anyone would change anything is irrelevant to this thread. I only want to know which change players would prefer, if they had to choose.

Updated OP; thanks!
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"In general you shouldnt say gg before clicking resign IMO"

"♪You can't trust anyone, because you're untrustable. How can you trust someone you know can't trust you?♫"
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New Zealand zoom
EP Project Lead
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ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

06 Jul 2019, 15:07

jgals wrote:its funny how the devs are so reticent to change something that no one would even care about like mantlet speed with the stated mission of "not changing the original game too much" but yet they implemented something so totally game breaking; nerfing the HP of an already paper thin cavalry unit that is expensive and costs 2 pop
It is very funny that they were. They aren't, however. Please don't project others' decisions onto me!
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"In general you shouldnt say gg before clicking resign IMO"

"♪You can't trust anyone, because you're untrustable. How can you trust someone you know can't trust you?♫"
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Armenia Sargsyan
Jaeger
Donator 01
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06 Jul 2019, 15:08

zoom wrote:
jgals wrote:its funny how the devs are so reticent to change something that no one would even care about like mantlet speed with the stated mission of "not changing the original game too much" but yet they implemented something so totally game breaking; nerfing the HP of an already paper thin cavalry unit that is expensive and costs 2 pop
They were. They aren't.

they weren't, they are
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New Zealand zoom
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06 Jul 2019, 15:10

Sargsyan wrote:
zoom wrote:
jgals wrote:its funny how the devs are so reticent to change something that no one would even care about like mantlet speed with the stated mission of "not changing the original game too much" but yet they implemented something so totally game breaking; nerfing the HP of an already paper thin cavalry unit that is expensive and costs 2 pop
They were. They aren't.

they weren't, they are
Nonsense! What makes you say that – my consistently expressed desire to buff unviable features, over the past ten years?
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"In general you shouldnt say gg before clicking resign IMO"

"♪You can't trust anyone, because you're untrustable. How can you trust someone you know can't trust you?♫"
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New Zealand zoom
EP Project Lead
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Location: New_Sweland

06 Jul 2019, 15:11

GiBthedurrty wrote:i will not anwser and become a zoiboy
Although I'm not sure what that means: : (
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"In general you shouldnt say gg before clicking resign IMO"

"♪You can't trust anyone, because you're untrustable. How can you trust someone you know can't trust you?♫"
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Armenia Sargsyan
Jaeger
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06 Jul 2019, 15:13

zoom wrote:
Sargsyan wrote:
Show hidden quotes

they weren't, they are
Nonsense! What makes you say that – my consistently expressed desire to buff unviable features, over the past ten years?

i wish esoc existed 10 years ago
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New Zealand zoom
EP Project Lead
Posts: 8602
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

06 Jul 2019, 15:15

ESOC is irrelevant to my statement. I am talking about the game, you happy guy. Now stop embarrasing yourself.
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"In general you shouldnt say gg before clicking resign IMO"

"♪You can't trust anyone, because you're untrustable. How can you trust someone you know can't trust you?♫"
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Germany aligator92
Lancer
Posts: 792
ESO: aligator92

06 Jul 2019, 15:31

3SW is prettier design wise but 2SW + 1S + 2U is better balance wise because removing both Uhlans completely turns the early cav balance vs other cav starting civs on its head. So as a german player I would prefer 2SW + 1S + 2U.

zoom wrote:[u]
P.S. We should add a Settler to all Discovery Age shipments (other than 2SW (because it already has it), and INFINITE and TEAM shipments (by default)). It would help balance 2SW, and remove a horribly ugly inconsistency, that's hiding in plain sight.

Are we talking german shipments here or all discovery shipments?
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New Zealand zoom
EP Project Lead
Posts: 8602
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

06 Jul 2019, 15:33

Again, Germans. My bad. I did update the OP. Let me do it again in another attempt to be clearer. Thanks!
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"In general you shouldnt say gg before clicking resign IMO"

"♪You can't trust anyone, because you're untrustable. How can you trust someone you know can't trust you?♫"
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France Kaiserklein
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Posts: 7247
Location: Paris
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06 Jul 2019, 15:45

There isn't any inconsistency tbh. Germany just happens to get sw shipments which are stronger than vil shipments, both discovery 2 sw and colonial 3 sw. Then, discovery shipments don't have any free uhlans (2 sw included), and colonial shipments have 2 free uhlans (3 sw included). If you want to keep the consistency, well, you simply shouldn't touch the current 3 sw shipment.

Then again, at this point, I doubt consistency is really our main concern. As a german player, I'd rather have 2sw +1v + 2 uhlans than 3 sw + 0 uhlan. It's just never really worth trading 1v for 2 uhlans. I don't know if it would be enough of a nerf, would need testing.
It's definitely a smoother change than 3 sw + 0 uhlan though, because that one would change the way germany is played, most likely making 700w the preferred standard first shipment. Not getting the early 2 uhlans to harass your opponent, and then having 5 uhlans instead of 7, just makes the early colonial so much weaker, while having one less vil doesn't really matter early on. And if you're not starting with cav it's the same story, probably even worse when you go for a naked ff.
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LoOk_tOm: I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..

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Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
Donator 02
Posts: 7561
ESO: Garja

06 Jul 2019, 15:57

-2 ulhans is clearly a more drastic change, while -1v is hust a shadow nerf.
Bith are impactful balance wise, just the vill one is less intrusive
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Kiribati SirCallen
Gendarme
Posts: 7913
ESO: KTRAlN
Location: Midwest best west

06 Jul 2019, 16:27

I am against all eco nerfs in EP
and the giving famishes the craving
sweet thames, run softly, til I end my song

The shepherd's staff's tantalus around my neck

let the water
touch the tongue
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United States of America GiBthedurrty
Dragoon
Donator 01
Posts: 444
ESO: [YumiW]-GiBthedurrty

06 Jul 2019, 17:21

DID ZOI DELETE "ZOIBOYCHILL XD?"
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Armenia Sargsyan
Jaeger
Donator 01
Posts: 2067
ESO: Sargsyan
Location: Armenia
GameRanger ID: 2106182

06 Jul 2019, 17:23

what is that true ?
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Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 7497

06 Jul 2019, 17:25

I like neither change but would pick -1v over -2 cav.
Maybe you can leave Germans alone if exiled prince is being nerfed further?
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Armenia Sargsyan
Jaeger
Donator 01
Posts: 2067
ESO: Sargsyan
Location: Armenia
GameRanger ID: 2106182

06 Jul 2019, 17:25

my posts are also deleted, such an atrocity towards our freedom of speech

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