"3 Settler Wagons" Shipment Discussion

[zoom]

I have never argued that Germans is OP. Please read my posts, then ask any questions you may have. I'm happy to answer them.

[GiBthedurrty]

my posts are also deleted, such an atrocity towards our freedom of speech

Genocide, one might say.

yikes lowblow u are cucking for turks now

[Djigit]

Weirdly enough, I'd like this shipment to remain as it is.

Maybe you can explain why you are so keen on not balancing a broken and ugly shipment, after reading the OP. Any valid arguments at all would contribute to making me less keen on balancing a broken and ugly shipment. It's going to be a hard sell, but anything is more than nothing.

Anything that allegedly weakens colonial is a big NO from me given the current TP/age3 meta.
But again, I'm not even sure 2SW+1S+2U is a significant nerf...

[gamevideo113]

I disagree. In practice, I find that view illogical. It's rationalizing to avoid the fact of the matter. I'm sure you understand that the civilization would be underpowered with a 3S shipment. Germans doesn't "just happen" to get stronger SW shipments. For the Discovery shipment, this is justified, albeit ugly as fuck, since no other shipment got an extra S, but for 3SW, it means a further mess, being the only shipment of the entire civilization with double bonuses, while being a balance issue, of its own.

It seems a lot of people are mistaking "consistency" for "currency", failing to understand that 3sw+2uhlans is ugly, simply because they are used to it, assuming that the current norm is the proper state.

Good point about the 2 Uhlans. Given the existance of 2SW+2Uhlans, my question is this: Are you confident that 3SW would not be viable, over 2SW+2U? It could be a good thing, to have the strategical option, rather than a broken shipment.

If you really wanna take that route this is how i'd do it:
discovery 2SW - stays the same
colonial 3SW+2 uhlans - becomes 3SW
colonial 2SW+2 uhlans - becomes 2SW and +8% gathering rate for SW (which equals to an additional vill more or less)
industrial 6SW+4 uhlans - becomes 7 SW

I mean, i wouldn't see any possible way to justify having a 3SW w/out uhlans and another SW card with uhlans instead, besides "balance". If balance was the only thing driving the changes in this patch then there should also be no exitation about changing a shitload of other stuff that is not in the right spot at the moment but was left there to avoid creating a different game from the one we all know (e.g. buffing useless politicians, useless shipments etc etc).

Also, some compensation would be needed since this would be a kinda big nerf for germany.

[Goodspeed]

I like neither change but would pick -1v over -2 cav.
Maybe you can leave Germans alone if exiled prince is being nerfed further?

Absolutely!

Maybe you can explain why you are so keen on not balancing a broken and ugly shipment, after reading the OP. Any valid arguments at all would contribute to making me less keen on balancing a broken and ugly shipment. It's going to be a hard sell, but anything is more than nothing.

I find the shipment neither broken nor ugly. If the civ is OP, that doesn't suddenly make their strongest civ bonuses "broken". Germans have and have always had stronger vill shipments by design, it's part of their SW bonus. See 4v in discovery age, which by the way I would sooner look to nerf if you must mess with their vill shipments.

Playing Germans, getting to send their excellent vill shipments is what a player looks forward to. Taking that away will have a disproportional negative effect on the feel of the civ compared to any positive effect it may have on balance.

Neither of our resident German experts seem to be in favor of this change which should tell you something. If there is really nothing better so be it, but I feel like there must be. I would even prefer to increase their shipment penalty, a change I also dislike, over this.

[Riotcoke]

German units are also more expensive for their utility, E.g ww are far more expensive than goons.

[Kaiserklein]

I disagree. In practice, I find that view illogical. It's rationalizing to avoid the fact of the matter. I'm sure you understand that the civilization would be underpowered with a 3S shipment. Germans doesn't "just happen" to get stronger SW shipments. For the Discovery shipment, this is justified, albeit ugly as fuck, since no other shipment got an extra S, but for 3SW, it means a further mess, being the only shipment of the entire civilization with double bonuses, while being a balance issue, of its own.

I think what I described is just perfectly logical. Germany doesn't ship any settlers, they ship settler wagons, and these shipments are stronger. And they also get 2 uhlans with each colonial shipment. So how is 3 sw + 2 uhlans weird? It's too strong, but it makes perfect sense. While 2 sw + 1 vil is really not consistent since germans don't ship vils, nor is 3 sw + 0 uhlan since germans get free uhlans with colonial shipments. No matter how you change the 3 sw shipment, it's gonna end up being ugly.

It seems a lot of people are mistaking "consistency" for "currency", failing to accept that 3sw+2uhlans is ugly, simply because they are used to it, assuming that the current norm is the proper state.

It seems to me that everyone thinks this shipment is logical. Too strong but consistent.

Good point about the 2 Uhlans. Given the existance of 2SW+2Uhlans, my question is this: Are you confident that 3SW would not be viable, over 2SW+2U? It could be a good thing, to have the strategical option, rather than a broken shipment.

I don't think 2 sw + 2 uhlans is relevant. It's not a shipment we see very often. The reason why you'd pick 2 sw + 2 uhlans over 3 sw would be the 2 uhlans obviously; but then again, people would send 700w + 2 uhlans, making the 2 sw shipment irrelevant. The 2 uhlans in very early colonial are just a very big deal. However getting the 2 uhlans a bit later on is less relevant, so I believe people would probably do 700w + 2 uhlans followed by 3 sw + 0 uhlan.

[deleted_user0]

Just remove 3sw all together. Ger doesnt need 2x vill shipments. And perhaps just that change is enough to nerf ger without having to change any crate starts, xp rates or tp availability

[zoom]

P.S. We should add a Settler to all Discovery Age shipments (other than 2SW (because it already has it), and INFINITE and TEAM shipments (by default)). It would help balance 2SW, and remove a horribly ugly inconsistency.

Thank you for your input!

Isn' that as ugly as it gets? A tremendously long list for... eco theory?

It were a single change. I would probably rather replace a Settler Wagon with a Settler, though.

[ListlessSalmon]

From what I gather these proposed changes are more about making the discovery 2SW and colonial 3SW shipments less strong relative to other shipments.
I personally think its fine for civs to have certain things that are strong relative to other options and so are standard. We don't actually need to do things like (to take deliberately silly examples) buff age 1 wood gathering cards to the point where they are viable vs 3v vills, or buff pioneers so that villager aggression is viable. Obviously then it just comes down to the "whats a feature of the civ" thing which is inherently subjective. To me, getting settler wagon shipments which are stronger and getting uhlans with shipments once you've reached an age where you can make military units feels like a feature of Germany that need not be messed with. So I don't like either option, but I guess 2SW+1vill+2uhlans feels less ugly to me than 3SW no uhlans.

The +1 villager thing to German discovery shipments also seems weird (and really ugly) to me. You mention it balancing 2SW vs other possible discovery age shipments, but given that other civs (with 3v) all pick 3v over Germans other possible first card shipments, it seems pretty clear that they would still send 2SW and so it wouldn't actually meaningfully increase first card viability at all, concededly it would increase the viability of sending age 1 cards (read: eco theory), vs other cards when one is already in colonial age or later. Maybe that could be interesting, but adding 1 vill feels like a super ugly way to do it, particularly because that is India's shipment bonus.

Probably this comes down to just seeing this differently, to me 2SW fits within the same framework as 3CDB (whens giving +0.75 vills to all other French discovery shipments ) giving unique stronger villager types a boost vs normal in shipments. (Tbf I suppose France doesn't get 5CDB in colonial but certain other civs have only a 4v shipment there so that seems fine for my view). And then I'd view Germany's bonus as getting more military stuff in their shipments based on their age. In age 1 they don't have any military stuff so they get none, then from age 2 onwards they have military and get increasingly advanced so get more. That makes sense to me.

Honestly if there was going to be a buff to other German age1 shipments for the reasons suggested I'd prefer just giving them more of whatever the card is (say 350 resources instead of 300 and otherwise just slightly increasing the numbers for stuff like idk 12% eco theory). Then it would kinda be like with the merc shipments, the other set of non-free uhlan shipments, in getting more of what you're primarily shipping rather than uhlans. E.g. "instead of uhlans you get more X" for discovery shipment X with 2SW already getting more eco. (I guess maybe you could also throw this kinda reasoning at doing 3SW no uhlans in colonial, though it would still be a weird outlier in the colonial age unless you stripped more things of their uhlans).

Apologies for long rambling post. Thanks for all the work for the patch (even though I don't like this particular idea).

[5CH3U3R]

India have card 2.35 wood in age 2 + 1 vills = 5,7 vills and nobody says anything;
France have card 3 CDB in age 1 = 3,75 vills and nobody says anything;
Azteca have card 3 vills TEAM in age 2,for 3v3 games = 9 vills and nobody says anything;

Go Nerf colonial OP German, this civ wins all games in NWC LAN!

[iCourt]

Just try a patch with 3 SW and 1 Uhlan and let it roll for a bit. Ya can always change it back or nerf it more from there.

[Dsy]

I like neither change but would pick -1v over -2 cav.
Maybe you can leave Germans alone if exiled prince is being nerfed further?

Or other politicians should be buffed...
Exiled remains on current research time and others get a pretty big buff on research time.
This way civs remains the same strong but will have choice.

Also starting crates should have been already fixed..
Also useless units should have been already fixed...

[Riotcoke]

I like neither change but would pick -1v over -2 cav.
Maybe you can leave Germans alone if exiled prince is being nerfed further?

Or other politicians should be buffed...
Exiled remains on current research time and others get a pretty big buff on research time.
This way civs remains the same strong but will have choice.

Also starting crates should have been already fixed..
Also useless units should have been already fixed...

What do you mean 'useless units need to be fixed' the point of ep Isnt to make every unit viable.

[I_HaRRiiSoN_I]

India have card 2.35 wood in age 2 + 1 vills = 5,7 vills and nobody says anything;
France have card 3 CDB in age 1 = 3,75 vills and nobody says anything;
Azteca have card 3 vills TEAM in age 2,for 3v3 games = 9 vills and nobody says anything;

Go Nerf colonial OP German, this civ wins all games in NWC LAN!

As you mention bove: India have +1 villagers with every shipment which is pretty huge early game aswell, surprised there is no calls for removing the +1 vill from 5 sepoys / foreign logging etc..

Throwing my hat into the ring, I see no need to nerf the only two eco shipments / eco bonuses that germany get. I get that germany's eco bonus is essentially free units.

[Dsy]

I like neither change but would pick -1v over -2 cav.
Maybe you can leave Germans alone if exiled prince is being nerfed further?

Or other politicians should be buffed...
Exiled remains on current research time and others get a pretty big buff on research time.
This way civs remains the same strong but will have choice.

Also starting crates should have been already fixed..
Also useless units should have been already fixed...

What do you mean 'useless units need to be fixed' the point of ep Isnt to make every unit viable.

The point of EP is the make this very old game better and more attractive for the players.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Show hidden quotes

I like neither change but would pick -1v over -2 cav.
Maybe you can leave Germans alone if exiled prince is being nerfed further?

Or other politicians should be buffed...
Exiled remains on current research time and others get a pretty big buff on research time.
This way civs remains the same strong but will have choice.

Also starting crates should have been already fixed..
Also useless units should have been already fixed...

What do you mean 'useless units need to be fixed' the point of ep Isnt to make every unit viable.

The point of EP is the make this very old game better and more attractive for the players.

Does it make it more attractive for the players though? I'd argue the opposite. Imagine you come back from a 5 year break and you lose to grens or op xbows, how would you react?

[I_HaRRiiSoN_I]

Show hidden quotes

I like neither change but would pick -1v over -2 cav.
Maybe you can leave Germans alone if exiled prince is being nerfed further?

Or other politicians should be buffed...
Exiled remains on current research time and others get a pretty big buff on research time.
This way civs remains the same strong but will have choice.

Also starting crates should have been already fixed..
Also useless units should have been already fixed...

What do you mean 'useless units need to be fixed' the point of ep Isnt to make every unit viable.

The point of EP is the make this very old game better and more attractive for the players.

Does it make it more attractive for the players though? I'd argue the opposite. Imagine you come back from a 5 year break and you lose to grens or op xbows, how would you react?

Sounds like the reaction would be "Damm should of trained more cav, lol im so noob"

[Riotcoke]

Show hidden quotes

I like neither change but would pick -1v over -2 cav.
Maybe you can leave Germans alone if exiled prince is being nerfed further?

Or other politicians should be buffed...
Exiled remains on current research time and others get a pretty big buff on research time.
This way civs remains the same strong but will have choice.

Also starting crates should have been already fixed..
Also useless units should have been already fixed...

What do you mean 'useless units need to be fixed' the point of ep Isnt to make every unit viable.

The point of EP is the make this very old game better and more attractive for the players.

No it isn't, the point of EP is balance, anyone starting the game will play RE without a doubt.

[Dsy]

But how many times i said that buffing useless units is not the same as making them op?
Its extremist thinking on this case.
So afraid of changing things things remains the same: like tashunke prowlers. Are these a unit really?
Or halberdiers who lose vs veteran musks who are put into melee combat. What a great game! XD

[Riotcoke]

But how many times i said that buffing useless units is not the same as making them op?
Its extremist thinking on this case.
So afraid of changing things things remains the same: like tashunke prowlers. Are these a unit really?
Or halberdiers who lose vs veteran musks who are put into melee combat. What a great game! XD

Tashunke prowlers will always either be op or shit, Halberds are situational, they also beat vet musk in hand combat easily.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Show hidden quotes

I like neither change but would pick -1v over -2 cav.
Maybe you can leave Germans alone if exiled prince is being nerfed further?

Or other politicians should be buffed...
Exiled remains on current research time and others get a pretty big buff on research time.
This way civs remains the same strong but will have choice.

Also starting crates should have been already fixed..
Also useless units should have been already fixed...

What do you mean 'useless units need to be fixed' the point of ep Isnt to make every unit viable.

The point of EP is the make this very old game better and more attractive for the players.

Does it make it more attractive for the players though? I'd argue the opposite. Imagine you come back from a 5 year break and you lose to grens or op xbows, how would you react?

Sounds like the reaction would be "Damm should of trained more cav, lol im so noob"

I disagree with this. I think most players would feel like they're playing a different game, and they'd be disappointed by that patch.

[[Armag] diarouga]

But how many times i said that buffing useless units is not the same as making them op?
Its extremist thinking on this case.
So afraid of changing things things remains the same: like tashunke prowlers. Are these a unit really?
Or halberdiers who lose vs veteran musks who are put into melee combat. What a great game! XD

Tashunke are shit true, but do we really want Sioux to have another op unit? (because they'd need to be op to be viable in a Sioux composition). Halbs are fine, we see them as Dutch in competitive games (rapha, tabben train them).

[Goodspeed]

I like neither change but would pick -1v over -2 cav.
Maybe you can leave Germans alone if exiled prince is being nerfed further?

Or other politicians should be buffed...
Exiled remains on current research time and others get a pretty big buff on research time.
This way civs remains the same strong but will have choice.

I agree with this, actually made that same point to Zoi.

[Dsy]

8 vet musks vs 6 halbs in melee combat
No micro put in each others face.

The results may differ a bit but it sums up the case.