Dsy wrote:8 vet musks vs 6 halbs in melee combat No micro put in each others face.
The results may differ a bit but it sums up the case.
Musks are better than halbs in general. Still, with civs like Dutch you sometimes have to make halbs because you don't have musks. It's like saying we should buff dops or WW because they're worse than musks and goons. Well, Germany doesn't have musk/goon so that comparison is irrelevant.
Dsy wrote:Halberdiers are available to Dutch, French, John Black's Mercenaries (Act II: Ice campaign), Portuguese, and Russians.
So far i see only dutch is lacking of musks...
Yep, so basically don't make halbs with France, Port and Russia and sometimes you need them as Dutch.
Exactly. Thats what sane people call bad game design...
True, but whose job is it to fix bad game design?
I don't think that Halberdiers can be buffed to become reasonable. Its role is that of a slow pikeman who does slightly better against non-cav units while being more expensive and upgradeable to imperial. The current halberdier design achieves this quite well. It was never planned that halberdiers should fulfill other roles. If you buffed them to become more able against non-cav units, you would change the role of the unit in the context of the game in an unnecessary way. None of the civs mentioned above needs halberdiers to fulfill a different role, since either these civs already have muskets to employ for their needs or they have exceptionally strong halberdiers anyway.
edit: well there is one thing that I could see which could improve the usefulness of the unit. We could nerf musketeers anti-cav abilities significantly to make the halberdier the only melee unit capable of countering cavalry from age IV on.
Whatever is written above: this is no financial advice.
Goodspeed wrote:I like neither change but would pick -1v over -2 cav. Maybe you can leave Germans alone if exiled prince is being nerfed further?
Or other politicians should be buffed... Exiled remains on current research time and others get a pretty big buff on research time. This way civs remains the same strong but will have choice. Also starting crates should have been already fixed.. Also useless units should have been already fixed...
What do you mean 'useless units need to be fixed' the point of ep Isnt to make every unit viable.
The point of EP is the make this very old game better and more attractive for the players.
No it isn't, the point of EP is balance, anyone starting the game will play RE without a doubt.
Basiclly ignoring half of the features of game, how is that balancing the game . Sometimes I wonder if even half of the people who shout balance balance know what it even means.
Goodspeed wrote:I like neither change but would pick -1v over -2 cav. Maybe you can leave Germans alone if exiled prince is being nerfed further?
Or other politicians should be buffed... Exiled remains on current research time and others get a pretty big buff on research time. This way civs remains the same strong but will have choice. Also starting crates should have been already fixed.. Also useless units should have been already fixed...
What do you mean 'useless units need to be fixed' the point of ep Isnt to make every unit viable.
The point of EP is the make this very old game better and more attractive for the players.
No it isn't, the point of EP is balance, anyone starting the game will play RE without a doubt.
Basiclly ignoring half of the features of game, how is that balancing the game . Sometimes I wonder if even half of the people who shout balance balance know what it even means.
Balance is achieved when all the civs are as good. I don't understand how tashunke prowler being shit goes against that.
Goodspeed wrote:I like neither change but would pick -1v over -2 cav. Maybe you can leave Germans alone if exiled prince is being nerfed further?
Or other politicians should be buffed... Exiled remains on current research time and others get a pretty big buff on research time. This way civs remains the same strong but will have choice. Also starting crates should have been already fixed.. Also useless units should have been already fixed...
What do you mean 'useless units need to be fixed' the point of ep Isnt to make every unit viable.
The point of EP is the make this very old game better and more attractive for the players.
No it isn't, the point of EP is balance, anyone starting the game will play RE without a doubt.
Basiclly ignoring half of the features of game, how is that balancing the game . Sometimes I wonder if even half of the people who shout balance balance know what it even means.
Some units simply cannot be balanced, prowlers are a prime example, if you buff them so they are decent units not en masse you get an easy to make stealth melee cav that would be inane and completely op.
Goodspeed wrote:I like neither change but would pick -1v over -2 cav. Maybe you can leave Germans alone if exiled prince is being nerfed further?
Or other politicians should be buffed... Exiled remains on current research time and others get a pretty big buff on research time. This way civs remains the same strong but will have choice. Also starting crates should have been already fixed.. Also useless units should have been already fixed...
What do you mean 'useless units need to be fixed' the point of ep Isnt to make every unit viable.
The point of EP is the make this very old game better and more attractive for the players.
No it isn't, the point of EP is balance, anyone starting the game will play RE without a doubt.
Basiclly ignoring half of the features of game, how is that balancing the game . Sometimes I wonder if even half of the people who shout balance balance know what it even means.
A balanced game does not entail that every unit has to be viable. Tashunke prowlers are a very niche unit which aren't viable in a competitive game. I use them in FFA occasionally. Other RTS games also have units which don't see a lot of usage, but these games are still balanced.
Ideally, every unit would be viable at the highest level of a competitive game. The difference is that SC2, for example, has a full-time team working on the balance of their game. There was a long period a few years ago where Ravens and Swarm Hosts weren't viable at all. Other units like the Cyclone had a very niche role that rarely saw any play. The Cyclone unit has been changed a dozen times in the last three years, some changes better than others. You can't expect our ragtag group of top players to match this. They will prioritize looking at the best German nerfs. Buffs to non-viable units may come eventually, maybe with the DE, but these are hard to pull off because these buffs can have huge unforeseen consequences and therefore need a lot of testing. Time is better spent on balance issues which have a bigger priority. I am not expecting any changes to units which currently aren't viable in the near future myself, but who knows what the future DE will bring to the table.
You also have to remember that EP doesn't want to change the core of the game too much, even though i disagree with him a lot i agree with people like breeze in this respect, EP should just tweak the game to make it balanced and not change the meta too much, an example is Teepees for sioux going to far.
I wasnt talking about viability. I was talking about units which are worse in every aspects than the other. There is a huge difference between these. In example: Car game: 1. car: turning better, moving faster 2. car: turning worse, moving slower Its bad game design like in AOE3 a lot content like this. In other case: 1. car: turning better, moving slower 2. car: turning worse, moving faster In the meta can be that 95% is the second car used, but still the first has a feature at least which can be used certain maps and its fun. Meanwhile in the first case its 100% forgotten.
On topic: i guess if the change on SW shipments is really necessary (which i don’t really believe since it is an overall nerf but it might be better than other solutions) i’d go for infinite 2SW 2Uhlans. Possibly it also helps on no tp maps.
Off topic: you don’t need to change the role of a unit to change its viability. Halbs could very easily cost 50f 50g and the player who makes them would definitely suffer less from making halbs instead of musks. EP should not change too much the way the game is played, but at least tweaking some prices here and there could be a positive thing for the game.
[Some people aspire to be pr30+, some people aspire to have fun, and some people aspire to play 3v3 Deccan.] - vividlyplain - 2019Who (nationality) rape ?
stupid logic. noob players can say op?
toxic, Insult, Racism ?
What about making Germanys shipments take 10s longer to come. That would make it easier to punish ff play and slow down their nutty mass a little without taking away their identity. Shipment penalties seem to fit with their civ bonus. IDK this might be dumb.
Goodspeed wrote:I like neither change but would pick -1v over -2 cav. Maybe you can leave Germans alone if exiled prince is being nerfed further?
Or other politicians should be buffed... Exiled remains on current research time and others get a pretty big buff on research time. This way civs remains the same strong but will have choice.
I agree with this, actually made that same point to Zoi.
So you did. You actually failed to include that same explanation, too! I have every intention of buffing the alternatives. It's only a matter of priorities.
40s Fortress Age-up is simply too extreme an outlier, regardless of the alternatives. As an illustration of this, consider that 4 Hussars would have to become at least 7 to compete. The nerf is helpful to inter-civ balance, to boot! However, 50s isn't necessarily. We'll see!
It's interesting to think that you, of all people, should prefer making 30 changes, to making a single obvious one.
Dsy wrote:Halberdiers are available to Dutch, French, John Black's Mercenaries (Act II: Ice campaign), Portuguese, and Russians.
So far i see only dutch is lacking of musks...
Yep, so basically don't make halbs with France, Port and Russia and sometimes you need them as Dutch.
Exactly. Thats what sane people call bad game design...
True, but whose job is it to fix bad game design?
I don't think that Halberdiers can be buffed to become reasonable. Its role is that of a slow pikeman who does slightly better against non-cav units while being more expensive and upgradeable to imperial. The current halberdier design achieves this quite well. It was never planned that halberdiers should fulfill other roles. If you buffed them to become more able against non-cav units, you would change the role of the unit in the context of the game in an unnecessary way. None of the civs mentioned above needs halberdiers to fulfill a different role, since either these civs already have muskets to employ for their needs or they have exceptionally strong halberdiers anyway.
edit: well there is one thing that I could see which could improve the usefulness of the unit. We could nerf musketeers anti-cav abilities significantly to make the halberdier the only melee unit capable of countering cavalry from age IV on.
Goodspeed wrote:I like neither change but would pick -1v over -2 cav. Maybe you can leave Germans alone if exiled prince is being nerfed further?
Or other politicians should be buffed... Exiled remains on current research time and others get a pretty big buff on research time. This way civs remains the same strong but will have choice.
Also starting crates should have been already fixed.. Also useless units should have been already fixed...
What do you mean 'useless units need to be fixed' the point of ep Isnt to make every unit viable.
The point of EP is the make this very old game better and more attractive for the players.
Goodspeed wrote:I like neither change but would pick -1v over -2 cav. Maybe you can leave Germans alone if exiled prince is being nerfed further?
Or other politicians should be buffed... Exiled remains on current research time and others get a pretty big buff on research time. This way civs remains the same strong but will have choice. Also starting crates should have been already fixed.. Also useless units should have been already fixed...
What do you mean 'useless units need to be fixed' the point of ep Isnt to make every unit viable.
The point of EP is the make this very old game better and more attractive for the players.
No it isn't, the point of EP is balance, anyone starting the game will play RE without a doubt.
Basiclly ignoring half of the features of game, how is that balancing the game . Sometimes I wonder if even half of the people who shout balance balance know what it even means.
Some units simply cannot be balanced, prowlers are a prime example, if you buff them so they are decent units not en masse you get an easy to make stealth melee cav that would be inane and completely op.
Right, so you buff them to be situationally viable.
gamevideo113 wrote:On topic: i guess if the change on SW shipments is really necessary (which i don’t really believe since it is an overall nerf but it might be better than other solutions) i’d go for infinite 2SW 2Uhlans. Possibly it also helps on no tp maps.
Off topic: you don’t need to change the role of a unit to change its viability. Halbs could very easily cost 50f 50g and the player who makes them would definitely suffer less from making halbs instead of musks. EP should not change too much the way the game is played, but at least tweaking some prices here and there could be a positive thing for the game.
It were intended to be a nerf, so that checks out. Infinite shipments don't come with Uhlans, and the ten or so players I've asked about INFINITE 2 Settler Wagons, in the past, disliked the idea.
shiptor wrote:What about making Germanys shipments take 10s longer to come. That would make it easier to punish ff play and slow down their nutty mass a little without taking away their identity. Shipment penalties seem to fit with their civ bonus. IDK this might be dumb.
I don't think it's dumb, but it's a negative change that risks feeling intrusive. If you want to make intrusive changes, try to make them positive. Otherwise, try an alternative.
gamevideo113 wrote:On topic: i guess if the change on SW shipments is really necessary (which i don’t really believe since it is an overall nerf but it might be better than other solutions) i’d go for infinite 2SW 2Uhlans. Possibly it also helps on no tp maps.
Off topic: you don’t need to change the role of a unit to change its viability. Halbs could very easily cost 50f 50g and the player who makes them would definitely suffer less from making halbs instead of musks. EP should not change too much the way the game is played, but at least tweaking some prices here and there could be a positive thing for the game.
It were intended to be a nerf, so that checks out. Infinite shipments don't come with Uhlans, and the ten or so players I've asked about INFINITE 2 Settler Wagons, in the past, disliked the idea.
What about giving infinite 3SW and remove the current colonial SW shipments? It would still make sense since german shipments should by definition be stronger than average so if india and azzy have an infinite 600 res shipment i don't see why ger couldn't have an infinite 3 sw (600 res) shipment, since germany shipments are more expensive. I understand that usually vill shipments have less value than crates shipments, but again, germany pays more for each shipment so i think it wouldn't be too crazy considering that traditionally germany's shipment in age2 have an average value of 900-1000 resources. I already suggested the possibility to change the german bonus from "uhlans come with shipments or more mercs" to "uhlans come with shipments or more mercs/sw", but it does feel like a very disruptive change to be honest, in no way i would implement it in a patch version that isn't a beta in the first place. If you also consider that jaegers are probably getting nerfed (since seemingly everybody agrees on it), germany would really suffer a lot in EP7. Imo ger isn't that broken in the first place. You'd either need to compensate a bit in some way or find another way around the issue.
[Some people aspire to be pr30+, some people aspire to have fun, and some people aspire to play 3v3 Deccan.] - vividlyplain - 2019Who (nationality) rape ?
stupid logic. noob players can say op?
toxic, Insult, Racism ?
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. Sometimes I wonder if even half of the people who shout balance balance know what it even means.
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