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Canada dansil92
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19 Jul 2019, 04:13

I believe the time has come for a rework to the Aztec civilization to get it up to speed in the current meta!

A bit of background- who am I? I am a pr20ish aztec scrub who has spent literally 1000s of hours playing aztec and getting to know every nuance of the civ in every age. I have written a 30 page guide to the aztecs and hope to continue expanding it. I am highly involved in *watching* esoc tournaments and as a huge fanboy of aztec have been crushed again and again getting wrecked in nearly every matchup.

This list is not meant to be 100% serious or that every single change should be implemented simultaneously. In fact that is the opposite of what I'm trying to accomplish. Even two or three of these changes could bring aztec back up up to "average" civ which is ideally what we are looking for with EP- all civs being average. This is meant to get people talking. Many of these suggestions are easily implemented but some of them would stack in unpredictable ways. I am NOT saying all these are needed lol

So this brings me to the point of this thread- my comprehensive list of all the changes I've imagined up to help buff this rather underpowered civ, in order from most feasible to most dramatic.

1. Buff coyote hp, attack and rr for a slight increase in cost. 5 coyote shipment- 6 coyote. Easy. Breezy. Beautiful.

2. Mace can train in batches of 10, similar to the strelet mechanic. This would help with remassing.

*3. Mace scale off of fortress stats, like strelets. This would leave the colonial stats untouched but give a buff to them in fortress/industrial, where the buff is needed.

4. Give Puma 2 range. Frankly, this should be added to all pike/halb units, as it allows them to more effectively snare cav and makes sure they always get the first hit vs a cavalry unit. It also matches the animations better.

*5. Eagle Runners take 1.5x from archers/skirms instead of 2x. This all goes back to the old patch back in 2007ish where skirms gained a multiplier vs dragoon units. But since skirms have the 0.75 vs "coyoteman" tag and not "light infantry" tag, when the 2x tag was added it introduced an inconsistency in the counter system. This makes it more punishing to make ERKs than other dragoons. a nerf to the RR to align it with EP goons would be in order alongside this change.

6. Eagle Runners get 2x vs artillery. This would bring them more in line with other dragoon units. The concern here is that it would make arrow knights even less relevant, but its very odd that ERKs don't have a multi.

7. Rework the temple support cards. Currently the 1000 coin cost is far too prohibitive for these upgrades which are actually required to make their units usable later game. The shipment that reduces their cost lowers the cost to 750 coin instead of 250 coin like the iro shipments. I don't have any ideas precisely about what could be changed but 1000 coin for 20 hp on a mace or an extra 3 attack in a coyote is absolutely terrible value. Increasing base stats on coyote would make the temple support card more relevant, for example.

*8. Rework the "Ruthlessness" card. This is one of my more serious suggestions, but also fairly drastic. I would modify the effects of the card to:
Adds +0.5x bonus to abstract infantry for Macehualtin and -0.5x vs heavy infantry
Adds +1x bonus vs artillery for coyote runners
Adds 30% bonus damage vs buildings for puma

This would give mace a ranged bonus vs skirms and 3x vs heavy infantry, allowing them to compete in skirm wars without altering the unit drastically. Stacking with fortress scaling could bring them in line with other similar units. It would be a unique tech to have an anti-skirm multi.

Giving coyote a bonus vs arty would be huge especially with heavy cannons which are basically a trump card on azzy.

Since puma will most likely get a siege nerf this bonus would be a nice buff too. It could be in the form of a multiplier like arsenal techs or just a base percentage, depending on the desired effect.

9. Coyote temple support card. Give 20% attack buff only? Needs some love. Could be an old han reforms style card for buffing stats by like 50-100% and changing cost by 50% or to like 100 food 50coin. Could be age 4. Lots of options

10. Politicians. The politicians need an overhaul, but in a way that preserves the civ designs. Here are a few suggestions of mine (colonial ideas are listed, later ages would follow a logical scaling like the other warchief politicians)-

"2 Skull Knights + 5% to all units" (could start at 10, idk. would increment by 5% per age, HP & attack)

*"1 War Hut Travois + 1 Warrior Priest" (I really think this has a strong potential but I'm not sure how to scale it in later ages as additional priests above 10 can't dance... but could allow some creative FF builds... idk)
OR
"1 War Hut Travois + Military Units train 15% faster" (increments by 5% per age, would also speed warrior priest boom. Basically i think this politician should contribute to WP boom, and would give a slight nudge to remassing, a common azzy problem)

"Increases War Chief attack and hitpoints + 4 Pet Jaguars" (add like, 3 more each age, would give some treasure hunting options on certain maps, plus Jaguars aren't terrible vs ranged infantry)

11. Coyotes getting 2 area damage. This could be from either the temple support card, ruthlessness (in addition to or instead of the above suggestion) or "silent strike" which no one uses (would be moved to age 3 minimum). Seems like a potential solution to the "skirmisher problem." Not having artillery as an option has always hurt aztec vs massed infantry and this would be a simple solution. Damage cap might have to be kept slightly lower than 2x in order to prevent it overscaling.

*12. Complete Rework of the Skull Knight. Aztec has like, 4 anticav options (literally like the best anti-cavalry in the game) it's just silly their ultimate unit is another stupid anticav unit. I would propose to make the Skull Knight a super Coyote. Remove the Heavy Infantry/ Infantry tags and replace it with Light Infantry and coyoteman. Change the multiplier to 3x vs abstract infantry, speed to 5.5, resist to probably 20rr. Or no multi and just make them have a higher base damage. I do like the idea of a lancer style unit weak to cav and strong against all infantry. This would further encourage alternative politicians, and would give a splash damage anti infantry. Siege would probably need to be lowered. This change should NOT be implemented with coyote getting splash damage too. This would of course ruin the skull/mace FI, but ERK/ Skull would become a legitimate Industrial composition.

13. Let Puma throw their spears! This is my most facetious suggestion, but making puma a ranged unit could improve their usefulness. Idk, like 12 damage, ROF 1.5, 10 or 12 range... mostly joking here but a musk style unit couldnt hurt considering how badly aztec suffers vs Musk Huss.

14. Arrow Knights. These guys need some love and some purpose. They are soo bad. 12.5 damage to a falconet is basically the same as 2 colonial musks shooting a cannon, with less HP too. They could be retooled to either increase the multi vs artillery, increase their siege (36 for a siege trooper, seriously ???), or give them some form of anti-infantry multiplier to make them more like an artillery unit. Or splash Damage. Or one pop... or.... basically anything would be an improvement at this point.


So there, thats my rant. Feel free to throw suggestions around. I wanna get people talking!

*the asterisks mark the ones I feel would be the most worth considering seriously
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Great Britain Hazza54321
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19 Jul 2019, 07:47

Can sense a lil bias in this one
No Flag deuxballesman
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19 Jul 2019, 08:36

Yep definitely :) But I like some of the ideas especially the one of adding range to halb and pike units similar to the kamayuks for Incas in AoE2. The thing is it really changes the game as the archaic rush could be quite nasty then.
Germany amiggo1999
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19 Jul 2019, 08:46

Yeah a range for pike units seems like a good change in terms of balance, and as said matches the animation.
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Great Britain Method_man714
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19 Jul 2019, 09:06

I like the ranged pikes. It would stop the annoying trick where you can pull cav away from pikes after engaging, which makes no sense.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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19 Jul 2019, 09:26

1. Coyotes are indeed quite bad. It would make sense to buff their HP/RR to make them stronger. Not a big fan of a 6coyote shipment however. As Aztecs, you have good mace shipments, and a bad coyote shipment, that's how it should work imo.

2. This change is a bit unnecessary. You don't really want to train maces in early game (because you rely on the 10/9 shipments). Also I'm not a big fan of changing the game mechanics in general.

3. This one would be relevant in team games (where Aztec is weak), but not that much in 1v1. You don't reach industrial very often, unless you go FI.

4. Pumas are already good, I wouldn't change the unit so much.

5. Eagle runners are already much better than goons tbh. Buff the other units if you want, but eagles don't need it.

6. I agree with this one, ERK feel really weak against artillery, and it doesn't really make sense.

8. Why not.

9. Too big of a change tbh.

10. You have bad politicians as Aztecs, that's how it should work imo, I wouldn't change that.

11. I don't like changing the units, so I wouldn't add area damage to pumas.

14. Buff the arrow knights, they're so bad right now lol.

In the end, the most relevant buffs to me are :
Give coyotes something like +10 HP
Give ERK a *2 bonus against artillery
Arrow knights only cost 1 pop
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No Flag Djigit
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19 Jul 2019, 09:42

What about a subtle multiplier vs hand cav for coyotes instead?
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Portugal gamevideo113
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19 Jul 2019, 10:06

Some suggestions are actually cool, some others look very strong, maybe even too much. I think ep wants to have a more traditional approach to balance. I like the idea of making other politicians more viable, and maybe a small buff to aztec units. We'll see
[Some people aspire to be pr30+, some people aspire to have fun, and some people aspire to play 3v3 Deccan.] - vividlyplain - 2019
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Armenia Sargsyan
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19 Jul 2019, 10:10

coyote hp buff is indeed needed
Finland somppukunkku
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19 Jul 2019, 10:33

The thing is that 90% of heavy hand infantry should be buffed. They are just weak.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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19 Jul 2019, 10:45

somppukunkku wrote:The thing is that 90% of heavy hand infantry should be buffed. They are just weak.

Except most civs have viable alternatives, Aztecs don't.
Great Britain Hazza54321
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19 Jul 2019, 11:09

X2 vs artilerry? You want erk to be an anti everything unit? Please leave erks lol, only thing worth consider is coy hp/rr, arrow knight 1 pop and siege trooper removed from pumas
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France [Armag] diarouga
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19 Jul 2019, 11:10

Hazza54321 wrote:X2 vs artilerry? You want erk to be an anti everything unit? Please leave erks lol, only thing worth consider is coy hp/rr, arrow knight 1 pop and siege trooper removed from pumas

Yea, forgot about siege trooper removed from pumas.
Canada vividlyplain
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19 Jul 2019, 12:23

Coyote RR should match a Hussar's RR. The stats and cost are basically half a Huss already... why do they also get half the RR?
Having a ranged siege unit like the AK buff suggested would be great too.
I also like adding a multi for ERKs against arty and adjusting the multis that skirms have to match what they have against goons.
Great Britain Hazza54321
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19 Jul 2019, 12:39

I really dont think erk need a single buff. A nerf is more reasonable than a buff but no one wants that m.
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Canada dansil92
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19 Jul 2019, 12:47

Hazza54321 wrote:I really dont think erk need a single buff. A nerf is more reasonable than a buff but no one wants that m.


You are correct, erks are probably the most powerful unit in the game- they are up there with forest prowlers and cuirassiers for their own unit class in power... but it doesnt stop the fact that

A. They are much weaker to artillery than other goons on a civ already weak to artillery
B. No one makes them. I have always considered erk+coyo as standard fortress composition since erks beat all musk units easily but the meta has been elite mace for some reason.
C. They are hard to transition to because of the nobles hut mechanic.

So im left wondering if it is the civ that is weak or the way people play them.

In the end, the most relevant buffs to me are :
Give coyotes something like +10 HP
Give ERK a *2 bonus against artillery
Arrow knights only cost 1 pop


Honestly this is really all i think azzy needs, and its all im really suggesting - and maybe war hut travois + warrior priest as a politician. They are better than they get credit for
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Great Britain Hazza54321
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19 Jul 2019, 12:53

Im pretty sure people try to train as many erks as possible in age 3.
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Italy Garja
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19 Jul 2019, 13:10

Siege troop removal was also a FP change. In exchange a -10 siege attack nerf was applied and the unit cost was changed to 45f 45g. I'm fine with both siege and no siege tag. Pumas are indeed sort of petards so the tag just makes sense. It's hard to counter Aztec rush without a bonus vs puma. Then again if the rush is nerfed overall (mace cards nerf) then no siege tag would make more sense.
ERK are fine I think. I mean they're kinda broken but they're a good unit.
AK need some buff as they're realy underwhelming. I personally would like a speed buff (align their speed with those of other infantry) and maybe a little area damage or something. Can even increase the cost slightly for that (75g->80g), it doesnt matter.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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19 Jul 2019, 13:24

dansil92 wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:I really dont think erk need a single buff. A nerf is more reasonable than a buff but no one wants that m.


You are correct, erks are probably the most powerful unit in the game- they are up there with forest prowlers and cuirassiers for their own unit class in power... but it doesnt stop the fact that

A. They are much weaker to artillery than other goons on a civ already weak to artillery
B. No one makes them. I have always considered erk+coyo as standard fortress composition since erks beat all musk units easily but the meta has been elite mace for some reason.
C. They are hard to transition to because of the nobles hut mechanic.

So im left wondering if it is the civ that is weak or the way people play them.

In the end, the most relevant buffs to me are :
Give coyotes something like +10 HP
Give ERK a *2 bonus against artillery
Arrow knights only cost 1 pop


Honestly this is really all i think azzy needs, and its all im really suggesting - and maybe war hut travois + warrior priest as a politician. They are better than they get credit for

I'd like to see the puma siege unit tag removed too, because right now minutemen get an underserved bonus against pumas.
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Canada Mitoe
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19 Jul 2019, 18:51

I would really prefer not to give ERK a bonus against artillery. Warchief and Arrow Knights are good enough counters IMO.
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19 Jul 2019, 19:19

I agree with Mitoe, i'd rather see an improvement in the usability of arrow knights rahter than a simple increase in the versatility of ERK, which is already pretty high.
[Some people aspire to be pr30+, some people aspire to have fun, and some people aspire to play 3v3 Deccan.] - vividlyplain - 2019
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Canada dansil92
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20 Jul 2019, 00:34

Arrow Knights desperately need a buff. Anything. Like 36 siege isn't even good. 50 damage to artillery but still resisted by 75% isn't good (tho they are actually pretty powerful vs siege elephants because the lower armour). That draw animation is so bad. Two pop is so bad. 10 base damage is so bad...
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Great Britain Hazza54321
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20 Jul 2019, 00:48

theyre good vs artilerry just suck vs buildings and ofc theyre really poor in terms of pop effectiveness. Erks are already a near broken unit and like mitoe said their anti artilerry methods are better than most.

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