EP 7 suggestions

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France flontier
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by flontier »

Its not because Its unwinnable or op, but broken, the value you often got from this ability according to the effort it takes to do it is totally stupid.
There is no reason you win a fight by :
- clicking a button
- right click the opponent army
- wait and a-move
while he has to do 5 times more stuff to not lose the fight
Its against all rts logic.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by charlemango »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:I would revert the ROF nerf and nerf their HP/attack instead. Nerfing ROF was very awkward.
Anyway, 20 range is just dumb.


This sounds good. Maybe nerf HP/attack in such a way that after sending the 3 abus upgrade cards, the unit becomes the base RE abus again. Of course the unit by itself in isolation would still be OP, but people here are not mentioning the fact that Otto literally has half the eco usually, so their units are supposed to be OP. It's literally part of the civ design.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by deleted_user »

charlemango wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:I would revert the ROF nerf and nerf their HP/attack instead. Nerfing ROF was very awkward.
Anyway, 20 range is just dumb.


This sounds good. Maybe nerf HP/attack in such a way that after sending the 3 abus upgrade cards, the unit becomes the base RE abus again. Of course the unit by itself in isolation would still be OP, but people here are not mentioning the fact that Otto literally has half the eco usually, so their units are supposed to be OP. It's literally part of the civ design.

Muh 500w TCs and halved mosque costs begs to differ.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by charlemango »

deleted_user wrote:
charlemango wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:I would revert the ROF nerf and nerf their HP/attack instead. Nerfing ROF was very awkward.
Anyway, 20 range is just dumb.


This sounds good. Maybe nerf HP/attack in such a way that after sending the 3 abus upgrade cards, the unit becomes the base RE abus again. Of course the unit by itself in isolation would still be OP, but people here are not mentioning the fact that Otto literally has half the eco usually, so their units are supposed to be OP. It's literally part of the civ design.

Muh 500w TCs and halved mosque costs begs to differ.


Lol, so you think Otto would be a good civ with, say, France's units?
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by deleted_user »

charlemango wrote:
deleted_user wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Muh 500w TCs and halved mosque costs begs to differ.


Lol, so you think Otto would be a good civ with, say, France's units?

That's not what I said. You are saying that you think I would say that, but I didn't say that.

Otto has less eco for stronger units. Yes, that's the civ design. It follows that if their eco is improved, their units should be impaired. Cheaper town centers which produce free villagers at fast rates with cheap mosque costs is an economic improvement. If otto units remain unchanged it makes for a strong, strong civ. Good thing jans and abus were nerfed, and still otto is strong.

You almost have to balance otto around 4+ tp maps because they possess the largest discrepancy between eco potential and unit strength, which just gets thrown all out of whack when they can get +20 vills with their designed strong early start.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by juhjuh »

how about remove Sepoys and abus?
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Mitoe »

HUMMAN wrote:What do people think of the game Mitoe french fi'd against urumi? Was it winnable for french? I feel like french coul've won pretty easily.

I think it was winnable but I needed to take better care of my cannons. Every time I'd tried going age 4 vs India it felt pretty easy to win with cannons and crackshotting elephants etc. but on stage I never managed to make it work haha.

Real problem with the ceasefire Urumi/Sepoy stuff is just how easy it is to do. Just ceasefire walk in and afk and you will beat most players.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Mitoe »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:India : The civ feels strong right now. However, I think that without the cease fire abuse, India would be fine (the gurkha/zam composition is good, and you could still go sepoy/mahout/urumi). Furthermore, cease fire was meant to be a defensive ability, and it shouldn't be used agressively.
The cease fire only lasts 5-10 seconds, and the units can't move during the cease fire.

I do actually like the concept of this change (we discussed together it very briefly at the LAN, IIRC), but I'm not quite sure how well it works in practice. Freezing units under the TC before Urumi pops or something could be pretty OP--but then again it's still something you can only use defensively and as long as you respect it when you scout a Taj Mahal should be fine.

I think it could be compensated with more coin upon age up to make sure that people don't randomly stop using it.

Japan : The civ is too vulnerable to artillery. A yabusame buff makes sense.

Yabusame +10 HP.

Seems reasonable.

Aztecs : Aztec is one of the weakest civs in the game right now, I suggest :

Arrow knights only cost 1 population
Pumas don't have the siege unit tag anymore
Coyotes have +5 HP

I guess these are alright. Idk about the Arrow Knight change--feels a bit unnecessary maybe, especially since I already feel that Aztec's lategame army is actually quite underrated.

Sioux : I think the Dog Soldier timing is too strong. Thus, I would either nerf that timing by nerfing their eco, or nerf dog soldiers.

The big button gives one DS every 4 minutes.

I would rather just rework them again somehow. The teepee eco thing feels a bit out of place for them.

Spain : The civ is quite weak (although I think it's better than what people think). I would like them to be as good as nilla spain.

You need less exp to get your shipments

I actually think Spain is severely underrated right now, but I can't prove it so w/e I guess.

Otto : 20 range abus gun doesn't make sense. Right now, abus are too good in fortress. I'd like to see this removed.

+2 range for abus moved to industrial.
5abus changed to 6abus.

I agree and disagree. Well, Otto balance in general is just a mess right now so Idk what to suggest really.

France : I think that France is a bit weak, thus I think we should unnerf it a bit.

CDB cost changed to 120f.

Hmm, not sure that France is weak but I'm not really against this change either, I guess.

Germany : The civ is one of the strongest civs. One of the issues is the jaeger shipment, which should be nerfed.

13 jaegers nerfed to 12 jaegers.

Seems reasonable.

Port : The civ is still weak in 1v1 on "normal" maps. A big buff would make it op on water/big TP maps, so we have to be careful.

2 organ guns shipment changed to 3 organ guns for 200 (or 300) coin.
Give cassadors the nilla stats.

I agree about organs but disagree about Cassadors.

Isn't the Cassador thing not actually a nerf? Cassadors have roughly 50% more attack on Nilla but also 4.5 ROF (50% slower). It could maybe be seen as a buff if you argue that because Cassadors have more speed they can fire a strong volley and retreat out of enemy range before coming back in and firing another strong volley (this negates the enemies ROF advantage). But really all you're doing is changing the way the unit functions and whether it is better or worse is up to a player's mechanical skill and the situation.

I guess they have 60% RR but they also have 20 less HP. This is kind of a nerf.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by gamevideo113 »

juhjuh wrote:how about remove Sepoys and abus?

I appreciate this being your first post in here! Welcome! :lol:
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Kaiserklein »

charlemango wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:I would revert the ROF nerf and nerf their HP/attack instead. Nerfing ROF was very awkward.
Anyway, 20 range is just dumb.


This sounds good. Maybe nerf HP/attack in such a way that after sending the 3 abus upgrade cards, the unit becomes the base RE abus again. Of course the unit by itself in isolation would still be OP, but people here are not mentioning the fact that Otto literally has half the eco usually, so their units are supposed to be OP. It's literally part of the civ design.

I really hate this argument. It's just so wrong. Are jans OP? Are huss OP? How come otto wins so many games without training abus? Do they really always need a broken unit to win games?

The answer is no. Otto wins games because their early timings hurt other civs. Because they're faster and their early eco is actually strong (they virtually have 19 vils in early colo and a TP since age 1). Because they can hold the map and control the stagecoach.

Sure, abus are supposed to be strong, and contribute to otto's strength, but let's stop acting like "they have to be OP because otto has 10 vils". It can and should still be a reasonable unit.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Yea, otto's eco is not that bad. Not having to train vills is +5vills, so that's already a 25vill eco without TPs (instead of 20vills), and with a 4 TP stagecoach you get 15 extra vills ie a 35vill eco. How is a 35vill eco bad ? It's as good as France and better than Iro or Aztec (which is why Iro can wait forever against these civs, you never need to push if they play colonial). And well, you have insane units, so even with less eco you're going to take good trades.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by gamevideo113 »

I agree that the ottoman economy doesn't really pose a big problem in actual games, but otto not having to train vils isn't worth 5 vils. It's more like 3, since they train in almost double the time, and also their vill economy grows a lot more slowly (which scales a lot in the long run). Therefore their eco is definitely subpar, but of course, once you have a 4 TP stagecoach eco isn't really a problem anymore. This holds for any civ to be honest though. If ottoman eco was actually "good", you'd see them being picked on no tp maps as well.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by bwinner »

I already dislike the argument that we should balance otto on 4 TP map because that's where people pick otto on tourney, but at least then we should balance them vs the other civ people take on 4 TP map like ger/spain/sioux/ports and not russia/dutch/india. And I don't think otto is good if you look like that. (ger/spain shit on them and the 2 other are complex but definitly noy ez wins for otto). Also, do you know how much time it takes to have 20vils as otto @[Armag] diarouga ? Brit/dutch/ger/anyone in fact can have many more than 35v by the time it happend, exept they don't need to control all the map for that in oposite to otto.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Riotcoke »

bwinner wrote:I already dislike the argument that we should balance otto on 4 TP map because that's where people pick otto on tourney, but at least then we should balance them vs the other civ people take on 4 TP map and not ger/spain/sioux/ports. And I don't think otto is good if you look like that. (ger/spain shit on them and the 2 other are complex but definitly noy ez wins for otto). Also, do you know how much time it takes to have 20vils as otto @[Armag] diarouga ? Brit/dutch/ger/anyone in fact can have many more than 35v by the time it happend, exept they don't need to control all the map for that in oposite to otto.

They have to pay for their vills though, so they're 3.5k food behind.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Hazza54321 »

otto rely on favourable trades to offset their completely shite eco. Nerfed their units and somewhat buffed their eco is turning everyciv into an eco based civ. If we are gonna further nerf abus then at least buff jans in colonial.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Mitoe »

Is it really healthy for them to not have reasonable eco options on non-TP maps though?

I don't want to nerf their units more than necessary, but I do want to make them more strategically diverse.

I'd like for them to keep that same theme, but you should be able to go all-in on eco and have it pay off if your opponent doesn't punish you--which shouldn't happen, but if it does then it should work out. At the moment even if you go all in on eco you don't really get rewarded at all as Otto.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by bwinner »

Mitoe wrote:Is it really healthy for them to not have reasonable eco options on non-TP maps though?

I don't want to nerf their units more than necessary, but I do want to make them more strategically diverse.

I'd like for them to keep that same theme, but you should be able to go all-in on eco and have it pay off if your opponent doesn't punish you--which shouldn't happen, but if it does then it should work out. At the moment even if you go all in on eco you don't really get rewarded at all as Otto.

Well the nerf proposed hurts exactly this option even more, that's why I think it's dumb af. Because if you already struggle to boom but then the unit you unlock aren't even great there is even less point doing that.
And that's rly the only moment where it matters, cuz the games kaiser brings where he gets a big stagecoach, and then eventually age up after 20min with some veterant abus are not won due to the +2 range, they are won way befor that for most of them.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by charlemango »

Kaiserklein wrote:
charlemango wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:I would revert the ROF nerf and nerf their HP/attack instead. Nerfing ROF was very awkward.
Anyway, 20 range is just dumb.


This sounds good. Maybe nerf HP/attack in such a way that after sending the 3 abus upgrade cards, the unit becomes the base RE abus again. Of course the unit by itself in isolation would still be OP, but people here are not mentioning the fact that Otto literally has half the eco usually, so their units are supposed to be OP. It's literally part of the civ design.

I really hate this argument. It's just so wrong. Are jans OP? Are huss OP? How come otto wins so many games without training abus? Do they really always need a broken unit to win games?

The answer is no. Otto wins games because their early timings hurt other civs. Because they're faster and their early eco is actually strong (they virtually have 19 vils in early colo and a TP since age 1). Because they can hold the map and control the stagecoach.

Sure, abus are supposed to be strong, and contribute to otto's strength, but let's stop acting like "they have to be OP because otto has 10 vils". It can and should still be a reasonable unit.


Of course jans are OP (at least on RE). On EP "OP" isn't the right word, but certainly jans are supposed to be better than regular musks. A big reason why double rax jans even is viable is cause they counter other musks and even bows. I'm pretty sure 99% of otto games are won by using a broken unit, yes. Name the last high level game anyone won as otto without using jans, abus, spahi, or mamelukes.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by bwinner »

charlemango wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:
Show hidden quotes

I really hate this argument. It's just so wrong. Are jans OP? Are huss OP? How come otto wins so many games without training abus? Do they really always need a broken unit to win games?

The answer is no. Otto wins games because their early timings hurt other civs. Because they're faster and their early eco is actually strong (they virtually have 19 vils in early colo and a TP since age 1). Because they can hold the map and control the stagecoach.

Sure, abus are supposed to be strong, and contribute to otto's strength, but let's stop acting like "they have to be OP because otto has 10 vils". It can and should still be a reasonable unit.


Of course jans are OP (at least on RE). A big reason why double rax jans even is viable is cause they counter other musks and even bows. I'm pretty sure 99% of otto games are won by using a broken unit, yes. Name the last high level game anyone won as otto without using jans, abus, spahi, or mamelukes.

FI revo ?
Actually I think ottomans unit are nothing special in fact, but their eco is shit as well. What makes them win games is that they hit big timmings.
Abus are a great unit but they are not good to commit in opponent's base, which makes them not that usefull since when you rely on a big timming, you want to commit into opponent's base.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Mitoe »

Maybe need to tack the range for abus onto an arsenal upgrade or something. Idk. Feels a bit awkward--I guess technically you could end up with 20 range abus in age 2 that way haha.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by charlemango »

bwinner wrote:
charlemango wrote:
Show hidden quotes


Of course jans are OP (at least on RE). A big reason why double rax jans even is viable is cause they counter other musks and even bows. I'm pretty sure 99% of otto games are won by using a broken unit, yes. Name the last high level game anyone won as otto without using jans, abus, spahi, or mamelukes.

FI revo ?


OK you can also win games with imperial hussars, another OP unit while your opponent is age 3...
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Kaiserklein »

charlemango wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:
Show hidden quotes

I really hate this argument. It's just so wrong. Are jans OP? Are huss OP? How come otto wins so many games without training abus? Do they really always need a broken unit to win games?

The answer is no. Otto wins games because their early timings hurt other civs. Because they're faster and their early eco is actually strong (they virtually have 19 vils in early colo and a TP since age 1). Because they can hold the map and control the stagecoach.

Sure, abus are supposed to be strong, and contribute to otto's strength, but let's stop acting like "they have to be OP because otto has 10 vils". It can and should still be a reasonable unit.


Of course jans are OP (at least on RE). On EP "OP" isn't the right word, but certainly jans are supposed to be better than regular musks. A big reason why double rax jans even is viable is cause they counter other musks and even bows. I'm pretty sure 99% of otto games are won by using a broken unit, yes. Name the last high level game anyone won as otto without using jans, abus, spahi, or mamelukes.

Jans aren't OP, even on RE. And it's the unit otto spams the most in basically every game.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Mitoe »

They definitely aren't weak, either.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by gamevideo113 »

Jans (on EP) have 15% less attack, 15% more cost and 40% more HP than a regular musk. Pros and cons kinda even out. I wouldn't say they are OP. They are just a solid unit because they are hard to kill.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by deleted_user »

Mitoe wrote:They definitely aren't weak, either.

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