EP 7 suggestions

[Mitoe]

They definitely aren't weak, either.

Where's your Autumn 2017 badge?

They never made me one :(

Wait didn't I have 4 badges before? Or am I crazy?

[deleted_user]

They definitely aren't weak, either.

Where's your Autumn 2017 badge?

They never made me one :(

Wait didn't I have 4 badges before? Or am I crazy?

Hire gibson - he has the best graphics.

[Cometk]

They definitely aren't weak, either.

Where's your Autumn 2017 badge?

They never made me one :(

Wait didn't I have 4 badges before? Or am I crazy?

here just take sam's

[Riotcoke]

Mitoe now has false advertising on his page.

[Mitoe]

Show hidden quotes

They definitely aren't weak, either.

Where's your Autumn 2017 badge?

They never made me one :(

Wait didn't I have 4 badges before? Or am I crazy?

here just take sam's

Niiiice. Can I have the prize money too?

[Interjection]

Good thread, was fun to read

[Astaroth]

Maybe I am missing something, but what I absolutely don't understand when it comes to the Ottoman discussion in this thread is this:

Everybody talks about Otto having a 4 TP eco. But why does nobody, even in top level games, ever try denying Otto the TPs? I especially noticed this in the game in which Hazza did a standard Spanish FF vs Otto in the NWC lan. He never even tried contesting the TPs.

By that I don't mean going Age2, but using your explorer to kill the Otto one. Especially as Spain that is quite easy: look for the Otto explorer from the beginning and kill him asap. At least make dogs in transition and camp all 4-5 TPs; then run there and kill the Otto explorer. Most civs can do the same, especially those with multiple scouts (China, France) or guardians; also Sioux. But even other civs can do it, because Ottos can't fight back if they want to build their TP.

There is almost nothing Otto can do against this before they have their first 5 jans out, which is like at least 1-2 minutes later then they usually build their 2nd and 3rd TPs. E.g. Flooky used to do this to me as Spain all the time back in like 2007/2008.

This hurts Otto like crazy, stagecoach is denied etc. Vills build TPs really slowly and Ottos have so few of them anyway. And even if they eventually get jans out to guard their explorer, that at least means they can't so easily pressure you in the meantime. Then you (e.g.) FF and kill their TPs anyway with 2 cannons/lancers/pikes etc.

So why does nobody do that? If you prevent or slow down the Otto TP boom, they easily fall victim to a fast, hard early FF timing.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Hazza tried to do that iirc but rapha had time to build his 2nd TP.
And your 3rd TP comes after you get 5jans so it doesn't work.
Also if you do that, Otto can skip the 2nd TP and adapt into Jan rush and you won't age in time as Spain because of the dog you trained.
Flooky used to lose half of his games to Jan rush btw.

[Hazza54321]

i wouldnt take shit from me as an example, i know dogshit about 1v1 and honestly fine keeping it that way.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I added a new change :
"bow units don't miss anymore" because it's just a stupid mechanics

[Astaroth]

Hazza tried to do that iirc but rapha had time to build his 2nd TP.
And your 3rd TP comes after you get 5jans so it doesn't work.
Also if you do that, Otto can skip the 2nd TP and adapt into Jan rush and you won't age in time as Spain because of the dog you trained.
Flooky used to lose half of his games to Jan rush btw.

Nope, Hazza never tried killing the explorer nor guarding the TPs.

The 5jans are not necessarily where the 3rd TP is, often Otto will rax somewhere else. Also, if you kill the Otto explorer before and/or after his age up, he can't build TPs for a while anyway. At least it can slow him down.

Otto can't always so easily change the build: for stagecoach, you often don't want to go super forward rax, but for rush you have to. For stagecoach you go single rax, but a Jan rush only works with 2 raxes properly. For stagecoach you need 700w first shipment, for Jan rush 700f etc.

As Spain, you can also e. g. go CM and/or wall a bit and still FF. If Otto then goes all in, he dies.

I am also not only talking about Spain. Most other civs can use age1 and early age2 to kill the Otto explorer if he goes TPs. That's particularly easy for Sioux, China, Aztec but also France. Most other civs can easily handle a Jan rush.

I just don't really understand why everyone assumes Otto can get 4 or 5 free TPs when you can easily prevent or slow down many or even most of them.

And then you have a 1 or at most 2 TP Otto. By the time Otto gets 4 or 5 TPs (if it ever happens), you can timing push the TPs before they pay off.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Maybe hazza didn't do that this game but he often tries to do this.
Anyway, as I said, you will kill the explorer, but he will get his 2nd TP, and he gets his 3rd/4th etc after he gets 5 jans out so you can't deny it anymore.

If your 2nd TP gets denied, you can easily adapt into jan rush (you chopped 200w), and CM/wall isn't always enough to hold the jan rush (kaiserklein vs garja from the qualifiers and the flooky games on pkclan are good examples of this).

Furthemore, trying to deny a TP in age 1 with like Aztec or China is risky because you're not 100% it's going to work (you can't know for sure where he's going to build his TP), and if it doesn't work, you wasted a lot of time (probably worth 100 resources).

Anyway, if you're lucky and your find your opponent's explorers, you should try to kill him but it doesn't always work. Because of the TP meta, the players try to make sure they can get there TP, and that's also true with civs like Germany.

[gamevideo113]

I added a new change :
"bow units don't miss anymore" because it's just a stupid mechanics

old han reforms intensifies

[gamevideo113]

In general i think more civs should try to take the trade line. More often than not it seems that people just wanna go for their build and make little effort to go out of their way to deny the TP line to otto or other TP hungry civs. I understand it is hard to do on maps like High plains, where out of 5 TPs you'd be happy to deny 2, and also in the long run you might lose control of the trade line (if you don't defend it), but at the same time TPs are a resource that really any civ can benefit from, even dutch/japan/india etc, especially if the opponent is planning to stagecoach the line.

[[Armag] diarouga]

In general i think more civs should try to take the trade line. More often than not it seems that people just wanna go for their build and make little effort to go out of their way to deny the TP line to otto or other TP hungry civs. I understand it is hard to do on maps like High plains, where out of 5 TPs you'd be happy to deny 2, and also in the long run you might lose control of the trade line (if you don't defend it), but at the same time TPs are a resource that really any civ can benefit from, even dutch/japan/india etc, especially if the opponent is planning to stagecoach the line.

It always strikes me that some people believe that top players have no clue about the game. We've all played thousands of games and tested a lot of build orders and match-ups. Of course, there are still many unexplored strategies but most of the time we know what we're doing.
After a lot of testing, I can say that most civs can't deny Otto the TP line. As Dutch or Japan, you can try to take 1 TP (or even 2 if you skip a lot of shrines/banks), but you're just going to lose it, and it's not even sure it was worth.

[Astaroth]

I feel like other civs just expect that they can let Otto have all the TPs uncontested and are then surprised that they lose. It's like letting Brits or Dutch or Japan boom freely, just with a worse eco (for Otto despite TPs).

If Otto spends like 1200 wood and 200f on TPs and stagecoach, at least some civs like Ger or France can actually rush them, especially if they go FB. If you go double rax musk and 3 huss or even 2rax xbow, Otto should lose map control and his TPs.

You just can't expect to play standard 5cav semi FF and win against a boom.

By 6:30 mins Otto can't have all TPs and a huge army.

[gamevideo113]

In general i think more civs should try to take the trade line. More often than not it seems that people just wanna go for their build and make little effort to go out of their way to deny the TP line to otto or other TP hungry civs. I understand it is hard to do on maps like High plains, where out of 5 TPs you'd be happy to deny 2, and also in the long run you might lose control of the trade line (if you don't defend it), but at the same time TPs are a resource that really any civ can benefit from, even dutch/japan/india etc, especially if the opponent is planning to stagecoach the line.

It always strikes me that some people believe that top players have no clue about the game. We've all played thousands of games and tested a lot of build orders and match-ups. Of course, there are still many unexplored strategies but most of the time we know what we're doing.
After a lot of testing, I can say that most civs can't deny Otto the TP line. As Dutch or Japan, you can try to take 1 TP (or even 2 if you skip a lot of shrines/banks), but you're just going to lose it, and it's not even sure it was worth.

Never said that top players have no clue, on the contrary. My post was just an observation about the fact that, like Astaroth is saying, it feels like people are generally just ok with letting otto take 5 tp (basically otto gets them for free without any struggle) and then complain because otto is too strong with 5 tps. That's what comes to my mind because from the games i've seen the players seem to never take an attempt contesting the TP line. If you say you have tried it already with different civs i totally believe you, since you obviously have more experience and game game sense than me. I just thought that, from a theoretical PoV, e.g. delaying a couple of shrines to get a tp and slow down otto wouldn't be that big of a deal, since the TP is an investment too after all, like shrines.

If otto is indeed able to take 5 TPs without any effort whatsoever then ofc a fix is needed.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I feel like other civs just expect that they can let Otto have all the TPs uncontested and are then surprised that they lose. It's like letting Brits or Dutch or Japan boom freely, just with a worse eco (for Otto despite TPs).

If Otto spends like 1200 wood and 200f on TPs and stagecoach, at least some civs like Ger or France can actually rush them, especially if they go FB. If you go double rax musk and 3 huss or even 2rax xbow, Otto should lose map control and his TPs.

You just can't expect to play standard 5cav semi FF and win against a boom.

By 6:30 mins Otto can't have all TPs and a huge army.

The rush doesn't work. At 6min otto will have 10jan/5abus while you'll have 10musks/3huss with no eco. Even if you take a good first trade, you will lose to the next abus pop because you have no cav.

[[Armag] diarouga]

In general i think more civs should try to take the trade line. More often than not it seems that people just wanna go for their build and make little effort to go out of their way to deny the TP line to otto or other TP hungry civs. I understand it is hard to do on maps like High plains, where out of 5 TPs you'd be happy to deny 2, and also in the long run you might lose control of the trade line (if you don't defend it), but at the same time TPs are a resource that really any civ can benefit from, even dutch/japan/india etc, especially if the opponent is planning to stagecoach the line.

It always strikes me that some people believe that top players have no clue about the game. We've all played thousands of games and tested a lot of build orders and match-ups. Of course, there are still many unexplored strategies but most of the time we know what we're doing.
After a lot of testing, I can say that most civs can't deny Otto the TP line. As Dutch or Japan, you can try to take 1 TP (or even 2 if you skip a lot of shrines/banks), but you're just going to lose it, and it's not even sure it was worth.

Never said that top players have no clue, on the contrary. My post was just an observation about the fact that, like Astaroth is saying, it feels like people are generally just ok with letting otto take 5 tp (basically otto gets them for free without any struggle) and then complain because otto is too strong with 5 tps. That's what comes to my mind because from the games i've seen the players seem to never take an attempt contesting the TP line. If you say you have tried it already with different civs i totally believe you, since you obviously have more experience and game game sense than me. I just thought that, from a theoretical PoV, e.g. delaying a couple of shrines to get a tp and slow down otto wouldn't be that big of a deal, since the TP is an investment too after all, like shrines.

If otto is indeed able to take 5 TPs without any effort whatsoever then ofc a fix is needed.

Well, you should try to steal one TP as Japan/Dutch but the Otto player is just going to kill it, and there's nothing you can do about it. You will delay Otto's TP boom (not even sure actually because he wants his 5th TP at like 7min which is quite late) but you will spend 200w and lose your TP.

[Luciofrancosi]

Is it possible to tweak the AI on this game so it uses the build orders used in tournaments??
That would be really nice to have and really helpful to practice certain match ups!!

[EAGLEMUT]

Is it possible to tweak the AI on this game so it uses the build orders used in tournaments??
That would be really nice to have and really helpful to practice certain match ups!!

With great effort, it kind of is possible.

[Peachrocks]

Is it possible to tweak the AI on this game so it uses the build orders used in tournaments??
That would be really nice to have and really helpful to practice certain match ups!!

With great effort, it kind of is possible.

Yeah but build orders are one thing. Stopping the AI from attacking anything in its line of sight and picking its targets is something else yeah? Admittedly, I'd love to have the ability to play with the AI and make it do certain things. Wish more games would give their AI's love.

[Interjection]

Maybe stagecoach is too cheap

Maybe iron horse is too expensive

[gamevideo113]

From a guide i found on the internet:
Base passive trickle: 2 XP per second
Standard TP: 1.2 XP per second
Stagecoach: 2 XP per second 200f, 200w
Iron Horse: 2.4 XP per second, 300w 400g

So basically stagecoach boosts your tp line by 66% on top of being able to choose the resource you want and iron horse boosts it by a further 20%.
Judging from this point of view interjection could be right. Stagecoach though counts for your opponent too, so if it was nerfed i'm afraid people would be even more reluctant to research it if they don't have the full TP line.

[yemshi]

Players? Reluctant to research Stagecoach? When? Where?