EP 7 suggestions

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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I don't think that a stagecoach nerf would be good for the game. It would make the map control less important than it is currently (which would result in passive games), and buff some civs (Japan/Dutch/China) while nerfing some others (Otto).
Iron Horse is only available in age 4, and by that time, 300w 400g is fine, and it's still a nice eco boost, especially against water boom.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Riotcoke »

Ironhorse age 3 would be cool, seeing as it never gets any screen-time and honestly is really cool.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by gamevideo113 »

yemshi wrote:Players? Reluctant to research Stagecoach? When? Where?
Well, if you have like 3 TPs on High plains and your opponent has 2 probably getting stagecoach is a bigger favour to him than to yourself. Generally though your plan is probably to take those 2 tps as well so you end up getting it anyway. Yeah, my statement was an exaggeration. :(
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by yemshi »

Riotcoke wrote:Ironhorse age 3 would be cool, seeing as it never gets any screen-time and honestly is really cool.
Even if you ignore the fact that age IV is literally called Industrial Age, I don't think the screentime Iron Horse would get would improve the game's balance. Any I-camp-in-base-strategy there is can be countered hard enough already and seeing how hard it is to get arsenal upgrades (that more or less cost the same as Iron Horse) I fear that we wouldn't just see a prolonged TP fight but a whole mess...
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Riotcoke »

yemshi wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:Ironhorse age 3 would be cool, seeing as it never gets any screen-time and honestly is really cool.
Even if you ignore the fact that age IV is literally called Industrial Age, I don't think the screentime Iron Horse would improve the game's balance. Any I-camp-in-base-strategy there is can be countered hard enough already and seeing how hard it is to get arsenal upgrades (that more or less cost the same as Iron Horse) I fear that we wouldn't just see a prolonged TP fight but a whole mess...3

Oh no it's bad for game balance, i just like the model honestly.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by yemshi »

There's many things I like too - but Ice Cream trucks wouldn't be good for the game either.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Riotcoke »

Hot dog carts too
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by yemshi »

Meh, can't agree :p
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Interjection »

Iron horse could just be a bit cheaper
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Interjection wrote:Stage coach could just be a bit cheaper

You mean Iron horse?
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Interjection »

Yeah, edited
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

It could, we wouldn't see it more often though as it is an age 4 tech.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Peachrocks »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:I don't think that a stagecoach nerf would be good for the game. It would make the map control less important than it is currently (which would result in passive games), and buff some civs (Japan/Dutch/China) while nerfing some others (Otto).
Iron Horse is only available in age 4, and by that time, 300w 400g is fine, and it's still a nice eco boost, especially against water boom.


While I agree map control should be vital I also believe that trade posts are part of the reason the game wonā€™t ever be balanced. Other reasons include the design of certain civs (Ottoman comes to mind). The best we can get is close to what we have now where there are good and bad match ups.

Not every map has trading posts for starters and Ottoman in particular is significantly weaker without a trade route. I mean maybe people like that sort of flavour but if it were up to me, Iā€™d try make the ā€˜trade post civsā€™ less reliant upon them but I suppose such changes would fall under the heading of ā€˜changing the design too muchā€™.

It all really depends on what you want from the game. Itā€™s easy to throw numbers and changes around but shouldnā€™t a general objective from the community be considered? Balance simply put isnā€™t possible without drastically changing certain aspects of the civs but is this honestly a good thing? Does diversity give enjoyment or frustration?
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

That's a point of view.
My point of view is that balance should only be considered on TP maps and that no TP maps are fun but not competitive.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Peachrocks »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:That's a point of view.
My point of view is that balance should only be considered on TP maps and that no TP maps are fun but not competitive.


I personally agree. That would simplify things immensely. All I was curious about is whether or not this view is shared. Even taking this into account though thereā€™s still a lot of iffy issues.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by dansil92 »

It might not be the best place for this but hypothetically a 200 wood upgrade at the mosque to increase mosque xp trickle to 1.5/sec or whatever would mimic a tp to give better viability to otto on non tp maps... for example
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Peachrocks wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:That's a point of view.
My point of view is that balance should only be considered on TP maps and that no TP maps are fun but not competitive.


I personally agree. That would simplify things immensely. All I was curious about is whether or not this view is shared. Even taking this into account though thereā€™s still a lot of iffy issues.

It used to be the EP philosophy. GS shared that point of view, there's no EP philosophy now however as far as I know, so can't say.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Peachrocks »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:It used to be the EP philosophy. GS shared that point of view, there's no EP philosophy now however as far as I know, so can't say.


Huh... good to know. Guess thatā€™s what I get for being asleep 9-10 years.

Also if you really wanted to replicate Mosques on Non Tp maps, simply make their cost 200 and give exp trickle equal to that of the average trade route. Wouldnā€™t help that much though for balance because itā€™s not just the starting trade post that Ottoman thrives off and adding increasing bonuses is dangerous because the trade post is balanced by it being on an exposed part of the map. Mosques can be built anywhere.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by deleted_user »

There's EP philosophy in zoi's most recent balance poll, which has been apparently posted public before. Paraphrased: "to increase the amount of viable options."
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by deleted_user »

If I were EP dictator I'd introduce a wall build limit in the beta - which increases per age and becomes unlimited in age IV.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by yemshi »

Hmm, keep in mind that your limit would need to be double (+) the desired amount of wall segments as pillars, that everyone deletes these days, count towards the wall build limit... And you still need need pillars to actually blueprint/ lay the foundation. Might get tricky.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Astaroth »

Why nerf walling even further? As far as I can see, it has been nerfed many times already and most top players don't or rarely use it beyond maybe a small piece here or there.

Additionally, walls in aoe3 are much less popular or even useful than e. g. in aoe2. In aoe2, most top players will wall in most tournament games, yet nobody supports a wall nerf. Aoe3 already makes turtling very difficult because of the limited hunts and mines which force you to leave base.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by gamevideo113 »

Walls were already nerfed significantly in aoe2 too. But i agree, 1500 HP walls are already ok imo.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Astaroth »

Stonewalls were nerfed in the feudal age. But compared to the relative siege of the units, even Aoe2 palisades are stronger than aoe3 walls.

And the nerfed age2 stonewall are still stronger than the aoe3 upgraded stone walls in industrial age.

Ppl in aoe2 also don't call for repeated wall nerfs, altho pros in aoe2 wall much more than in Aoe3.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by princeofcarthage »

Well if you balance on tp maps game would always most likely be broken on non tp maps. Correct way is to balance on non tp maps, that would result in tp being a similar boost to every civ rather than a lifeline.

Completely unrelated to above statement, EP has fundamental issues about:
1) What is balance?
2) What it wants to achieve?
3) Doesn't have strong basics to move on.
4) Probably lacks good enough playtest infrastructure.

Until these changes are solved no amount of changes can truly balance the game.
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